The Other Side Of George Floyd

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Faldaguy
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Faldaguy »

Once again, I encourage folks to check their sources and the stats. I have not done so for the Owen item Uncle Al gave us, as Owen's reputation alone so desperately fails the credibility test. The link below is an older article that provide some background about her associations and roots -- from a black, female reporter.

Other than that, regardless of the background of either Floyd or Owens, I agree with Uncle Al in that regardless of Floyds life or background, he should not have died at the hands of the police -- who should be examples of what we want for society, not so often guilty of employing unnecessary violence, but more as Beach Lion say their police are "trained to immobilize a suspect" (not kill them before the jury acts.) All of this other "stuff" be it socialism or party politics is irrelevant in my mind as to the horrendous number of incidents of violence in the US -- regardless of who of what color commits what against who -- it is all bad and none of it is justified by fudging data or pointing the finger at someone else.

And just one last gripe: Trump has more bankruptcies than nearly any other so-called "successful" business person; most of his money was inherited from a wealthy father who made much of it by egregious, and racist, practices in apartment rentals; and when Donald had lost that -- he started using the old and tried method of "other people's money", which he has also lost. There are also a couple big European Banks that would like to collect some overdue loans. His extensive record of violations of NY Housing & permit laws, among others are nothing to brag about; nor his admitted delight in "pussy grabbing" hardly seems the character we should be cheering. But, my opinion aside, here is another view of Ms Owen's:

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2019/09/ ... ns-blexit/
moonshadow
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

Faldaguy wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:47 am
And just one last gripe: Trump has more bankruptcies than nearly any other so-called "successful" business person; most of his money was inherited from a wealthy father who made much of it by egregious, and racist, practices in apartment rentals; and when Donald had lost that -- he started using the old and tried method of "other people's money", which he has also lost. There are also a couple big European Banks that would like to collect some overdue loans. His extensive record of violations of NY Housing & permit laws, among others are nothing to brag about; nor his admitted delight in "pussy grabbing" hardly seems the character we should be cheering.
Yes, that's what I'm getting at. Oldsalt gets highly upset with me when I lay it out with Trump, when he doesn't seem to realize, it's not the office I don't respect, it's the horrible person that currently holds it. I have a great respect for the office, and all of the men (hopefully soon to be women too) that have held it, regardless of party affiliation.

He gets upset when people disrespect our flag, and I understand that, however our flag represents our country... ALL OF IT. INCLUDING the minority races, the sinners and the saints, the homosexuals, lesbians, transgender people, Muslims, Christians, Atheist, liberal democrats, far right republicans, the capitalist and socialist, and yes even the flat out Marxist and communist among us, we are one nation, e pluribus unum.

Donald Trump just pisses all over that....

Antifa may burn flags, but Donald Trump torched our nation and then laughed about it. F--k him! He's not fit to hold that office.

Ya'll better wake up and realize we've got a fox in the henhouse!
Faldaguy
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Faldaguy »

Uncle Al added:
She is a well educated person. The only comment I made was
[0]Candace Amber Owens Farmer (born April 29, 1989) is an American conservative
commentator and political activist. In 2012, she took a job as an administrative
assistant for a private equity firm in Manhattan, New York, later moving up to
become its vice president of administration.
She is not a 'dumb' person but someone who values a good work ethic.
Uncle Al; Below is more background on Candace Owens, a pretty face with a fast mouth -- it seems she did learn something from her almost three years of journalism -- how to use the social media and how to use words to inflame; but I cannot support your proposition that a 30 year old drop-out without any advanced degree, and self-assigned 'big titles' from little jobs constitutes smart. (She married big money, maybe she is not so dumb after all.) Her many erroneous quotes, conspiracy theories, and rapidly changing political allegiances seem more like opportunism than any kind of solid credentials. Like many 'talking heads' if you make outrageous claims, you can become a Twitter star. Reliable, credible, research and facts don't seem to have much purchase these days. Anyway, take a look at this woman's actual education and credentials before you hitch your reputation to hers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens
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alexthebird
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by alexthebird »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:50 pm
Maybe running a country should be more like a business or else the country will end up a third world s--t---e
I think one of the things that the Trump presidency has proved is that experience in business does not necessarily prove competence in government. Forget for a minute when the President really was successful in business or not. When a CEO is unhappy with the performance of his Exec. VP of Marketing, that VP can be fired and replaced with someone of the CEO's choosing. If the President of the US is unhappy with how events are playing out in a state, firing the governor and promoting a governor from a smaller state as replacement is not an option. And, by the way, the governor can't just go around firing mayors or Chairs of the Board of Selectmen when it pleases them.

But there's more than that. The business records and activities of a private company (like the Trump organization) are private, unless subject to criminal investigation. The records, documents, and activities of the federal government are subject to Klieg lights from "news" organizations with an agenda (MSNBC, Fox, CNN), new organizations that purport not to have an agenda (PBS, BBC America, ABC, CBS), and a million and a half blogs, websites, and self-anointed experts who analyze, distort, and redistribute every thought and alleged thought coming from the President.

Then, of course, you have the stakes. A CEO makes a mistake in judgement and a lot of people could lose their jobs and shareholders of varying degrees of wealth will lose equity. A President makes a mistake and a *LOT* of people could lose their jobs or maybe we end up in a shooting war with thousands of people getting killed.

There is an entirely different set of skills required of a successful political leader than is required by a business leader. I don't mean to denigrate business leaders at all - they are absolutely critical to the well-being of our country but I hope that this presidency puts to rest the idea that a successful business leader is qualified to run a country as diverse and complex as the US.
moonshadow
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

If we run the government "like a business", who's making the profit?

And don't give me "the people", we're just the commodities.
Dust
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Dust »

beachlion wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:59 am
Being Dutch, it seems I have an idea about Socialism that is quite different from the general view in the USA. I really don't understand it because if you are not social, you will not fit in any community. And with the current social distancing, the word seems very popular.
Socialism, as understood in the US, consists of government control of things like industry, medicine, retirement funds, etc. It has nothing to do with being social. It's seen more as incremental steps towards communism.
beachlion wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:59 am
My grand-father was a Socialist. Around 1900 he marched with like minded people from the outskirts of The Hague to the center for meetings. They tried to get better circumstances for the working classes. And changes to things as 12 hour working days, 6 days a week, child labour, dangerous workshops and no invalidity allowance were much needed.
Labor laws are often included in the platform of socialist movements, and such (often much needed) reforms used as an opening to get people to consider the rest of their platform.
beachlion wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:59 am
... For centuries, charity from religion or rich people did not work. The poor and sick were not cared for so the state had to step in. The leading priciple as said of the government is to behave like a good father would do to his chidren, strict but just.
Charity works to varying degrees. It really has to do with the moral character of the people involved. Charity can work very well, and has at various times and places throughout history, right up to the present. I would say, however (like most things) it tends to work best at a smaller scale, and on the local level. It can be done by anyone, not just religious institutions or the rich; it simply requires love.* And that requires direct human interaction. Person to person.

The government (by definition) cannot be charitable. Government cannot love; it cannot be generous. It only has what it has taken from others by force. It therefore cannot be generous or selfless. It cannot love. (It also cannot forgive, and cannot be merciful, only draconian or lenient, but that is a discussion for another time.)

When the state steps in, it discourages the citizens from doing on their own, what the government attempts to do (successfully or not).

First, it eliminates the appearance that something still needs to be done, regardless of the reality of the situation. It breeds the attitude that "the government will take care of them, I don't need to."

Secondly, it takes away resources from private citizens that could have been used charitably by them. Sure, some would have hoarded those resources, but not all.

That first effect, however, is the more significant one. It reduces caring for ones fellow man (love or charity), and thereby destroys the moral fiber of society. It encourages narcissism, envy, and apathy. That leads in part to a fragmenting and division of society, of the sort we are seeing tear apart our country now. (Other things play into this as well, but a lack of charity/love is huge.)

Further, socialism simply doesn't work. It may seem to for a while, but it always fails. Give it a few generations (at most), and not only will it become financially ruinous, but there will be no one left with the courage and strength of character to fix it.


*The English word "charity" comes from the Latin word "caritas" meaning (among other things) "love", as in selfless giving, love of neighbor, etc.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

But we're not a socialist nation*... I'll grant that many people want us to be, but socialist we are not, so what "ism" do we pin the blame here?

*unless you're over 65.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

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beachlion
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by beachlion »

I don't think you have ever seen countries with multiple parties at work. After the general election a government is formed from parties that like (or need) to work together and form together a majority. That majority might be left-leaning, right-leaning or religious, depending on the outcome of the election. With that multiple party system you have to compromise, you never have a true socialistic government or right-wing or religious. The horrors about socialistic regimes are totally unfounded. Only with the recent developments, some European countries are nationalistic right-wing entities and I hope the EU can contain the negative effects.

I stop because this goes way off-topic.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by pelmut »

beachlion wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:59 am
I don't think you have ever seen countries with multiple parties at work.
We have had coalitions in the U.K. and they do seem to curb the excesses of a single party with a majority of the votes.  They can make it difficult to get things done -- but those things may be bad ones, as well as good.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Ray »

Dust,

I have to disagree with your comments on socialism.

A country with fully socialist policies and a disregard for the workings of capitalism may indeed struggle, but a country with what you would describe as having many of the characteristics of socialism - while working within a capitalist framework - can do quite nicely, thank you.

Consider countries like Norway, Sweden and Iceland. All have high taxes, government control and support, and the provision of a high public utility.

These countries are thriving. Iceland has topped the international list of the happiest nation. Not the richest. The happiest.

In the UK, we have free healthcare for all like many of our neighbours. That’s a basic tenet of a civilised society. It’s socialist in origin, but it’s embraced by the vast majority of the population - across the political spectrum.

Your arguments seem to stem from a deep rooted fear of anything that smells of “communism” or “Marxism”. As Moon states, all these -isms! It’s like listening to a fearful American in the 1950s, ignorant of the world outside the safe confines of the USA (through no fault of their own, I might add), terrified by the “Commies” and what they might do.

Having some policies rooted in socialism doesn’t cause a country to fall apart. It doesn’t make large swathes of its population feckless and lazy. It does help provide the aggregate that knits society together. It’s not the first step on the path to communism.

It makes a country civilised.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by crfriend »

Ray wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:40 am
[Many anti-socialist] arguments seem to stem from a deep rooted fear of anything that smells of “communism” or “Marxism”. As Moon states, all these -isms! It’s like listening to a fearful American in the 1950s, ignorant of the world outside the safe confines of the USA (through no fault of their own, I might add), terrified by the “Commies” and what they might do.
Indeed, in the United States that's precisely what's happening. We have at least three human generations that were completely brainwashed into believing that all socialism is blatantly and entirely evil -- forgetting, of course, things like Social Security, the VA, and at least a very rudimentary safety-net for the worst-off. There are folks who vehemently oppose the latter of the above, yet still gleefully embrace the former two.
Having some policies rooted in socialism doesn’t cause a country to fall apart. It doesn’t make large swathes of its population feckless and lazy. It does help provide the aggregate that knits society together. It’s not the first step on the path to communism.

It makes a country civilised.
Bingo!

As pointed up, the most successful and well-adjusted populations reside in countries that are a carefully-blended mix of the fundamental extreme of laissez-faire capitalism and socialism to tame the worst of the evils of the former.
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Stu »

Just to set the record straight about the Nordic countries - they are not always accurately portrayed. Take Sweden as an example. It is not by any stretch a socialist country. It has a curious welfare state system which is extremely generous to women who are pregnant and new mothers, and to migrants. It is, on the other hand, a country which has considerable, if hidden, issues with poverty. Poorer families can be achingly poor and having to manage on totally inadequate diets. Unemployed people without children, and poorer pensioners, have to live extremely frugally. The health system is heavily subsidised but certainly not free as every doctor's visit or hospital appointment incurs an invoice for anyone who is not exempt, and many people simply cannot afford to have their teeth fixed as they have to meet the vast majority of their dental costs. The Danish system is a bit more generous, but Danes routinely hand over half of their income to the taxman, and the tax on buying a new car is 180% (so a car which should cost 100,000kr will cost 280,000kr. Many Scandinavians fall into crippling debts from which they never emerge and those who have no debt, but have actual savings, are somewhat unusual.
moonshadow
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by moonshadow »

Stu, thank you for bringing rational talking points to the discussion. I also won't dismiss the points Dust made either.

Do you have any referencing literature you'd like to tag (link to)?

It's not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to put some context into what you're saying.
Stu
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Re: The Other Side Of George Floyd

Post by Stu »

Moon

I have lived in Sweden for the past 11-years and everything I report is based on people I know here. My youngest daughter here has a child and is expecting another, and she will soon be eligible for a maternity pay of 80% of her salary for 400 days. On the other hand, her first boyfriend's family were so poor that the father made a huge vat of soup each week and they family had to eke it out you last seven days. When he visited us, we had to give him food because he was always hungry. Older people tend to be among the worst off as pensions are all based on investments and many people simply haven't built up anywhere near enough to see them through their old age. I have also been to the doctor here countless time and had two short stays in hospital - always with an invoice, although affordable.

I did spot these links:

https://borgenproject.org/facts-about-p ... in-sweden/

https://www.savemysweden.com/30-percent ... -are-poor/

https://transferwise.com/gb/blog/health ... -in-sweden

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/denmark/in ... nal-income

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2012/10/da ... ather.html
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