It's all about "sex"

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Ralph
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It's all about "sex"

Post by Ralph »

I can't make any headway discussing the Trump administration's reversal of Obama's transgender health anti-discrimination policy. Everyone is so angry (one way or the other), any attempt at discussing the facts is met with accusations and ad hominem attacks from all sides.

One transman friend is concerned that as a person with other health issues such as epilepsy, he could now be legally denied treatment if he goes into a seizure. When I questioned whether that could really happen, he threw me under the bus in a ragepost about not caring what happens to him.

That just doesn't sound right. As far as I can tell from the wording, it allows doctors to refuse to provide transgender surgery/therapy/whatever, but nothing in there would allow them to refuse treatment not specifically related to transgender therapy, and certainly nothing that would allow them to refuse urgent life-saving treatment (whether SRS is "necessary to save a transperson's life" is a whole different argument).

Am I missing something? Can an EMT legally refuse to perform CPR on a transgender patient? Looking for documented, objective facts - not just personal interpretation of the headlines (or the sensationalist headlines trotted out by news media on both sides).
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crfriend
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Re: It's all about "sex"

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In this regard, medical tradition has long overlooked things like "sex", "alignment", "preference", and whatnot in the context of providing assistance to another being (this applies to human physicians and veterinarians alike) who is in medical distress. This would tend to weed out the personnel who are not dedicated to the cause of medicine, but may not apply at the periphery.

Whilst this may make Donnie's actions popular with some reactionaries, I do not really see it resonating with the medical profession proper which, I fervently hope, still clings to its traditional values.

If an instance of discrimination is uncovered that is based solely on anything other than species, then I hope a charge of nonfeasance (failure to take action when action was required) would be immediately filed and prosecuted to the maximum extent of law, including international human-rights law. This is another living being, dammit, and your own personal prejudices be damned.

In the case of your friend, a medical question of birth-sex is entirely appropriate as there are facets of effective treatment that differ based on biology, and doctors get that.
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Ralph
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by Ralph »

Followup: A friend-of-the-friend in question finally provided a concrete example, which is indeed horrific. Regardless of one's personal, religious, psychological, or medical opinions about transgender issues this is appalling and should not be legal under any circumstances, ever.

TL;DR taken straight from the article:
Hunter was in a road accident in 1995. Emergency medical technicians at the scene of the accident used derogatory epithets and withdrew medical care after cutting open Tyra's pants and discovering that she had a penis,[3] and ER staff at DC General Hospital subsequently provided dilatory and inadequate care.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tyra_Hunter
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crfriend
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by crfriend »

If that is to be believed, it flies in the face of everything I know about the practice of medicine (and I have some experience in that). It's possible that ignorant EMTs may have made irresponsible decisions, but it is unthinkable that an MD in a major hospital would behave so. If that story is factual the individuals should have been criminally charged.
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oldsalt1
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by oldsalt1 »

Ralph I don't know if this is helpful but here goes

My son is an EMT for am major hospital group

At times his area of assignment is NYC specifically lower Manhattan " The Village" because of the area encountering an individual mentioned above is exceedingly possible.

I asked him what is the companies policy in dealing with an individual who falls into this category.

He said that there is no difference in the treatment of the individual because of their status.

He said they must know of the persons status because it is necessary to determine the proper procedures. which could differ because the person would possibly be on different medications which will precipitate the manor in which they must be treated.

He confirmed that the questions are from an educational position and the possibility of denying treatment was never a part of the picture.

Ralph
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by Ralph »

Thanks, Salt and CR. It sounds like that particular case was a unique aberration on the part of a rogue EMT crew, not standard practice. It's also worth noting that the original incident occurred in... what, '95? So even if that attitude was more prevalent back then, the subsequent lawsuit and 25 years of shifting trends has made that unthinkable nowadays.
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Re: It's all about "sex"

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Over here qualifying doctors are required to adhere to a version of the Hippocratic Oath of which part is: "Of beneficence (to do good or avoid evil) and non-maleficence (from the Latin 'primum non nocere', or 'do no harm') towards patients. (In fact the well-known "first do no harm" phrase does not feature in the classical Hippocratic Oath.)". I think that our NHS doesn't have any distinction over the transgendered and takes each patient's needs as they come.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.

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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by moonshadow »

So..... whoopdiedoo! Trans people might get denied care...

Such is life for the millions of uninsured and underinsured Americans...

Who gives a sh!t? ...... NOBODY

They're probably better off anyway, our medical industry is nothing but a pill popping glorified drug cartel.
-Moon Shadow
"How do you propose to control me when you can't even control yourself?"

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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by Sinned »

I see that the Supreme Court has ruled that gay and lesbians are protected from being fired for their sexuality by civil rights laws by a vote of 6 to 3. Anything that annoys Trump is fine with me. Moon may find that good news. Not that I'm insinuating that he's either gay or a lesbian but he does have an affinity for those left or right of the line.
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Re: It's all about "sex"

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Sinned wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:51 pm
Moon may find that good news.
I'm glad I didn't put money on that one! I was flat out shocked by the news. First bit of good news in 2020...

Interestingly, the argument pitched was essentially the same one I pitched to my former boss when my job was on the line over my skirt wearing...

"It may not be illegal, but the simple fact remains, that if I had a vagina, we would not be having this discussion, and thus am being denied a privilege enjoyed by 51% of the population simply on the grounds of how my creator made me, if thats not discrimination, I don't know what is..."
-Moon Shadow
"How do you propose to control me when you can't even control yourself?"

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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by Faldaguy »

Trump's guy Gorsuch may have penned the majority opinion, and I'm delighted to see it; but the basis of contextualism may not be the best reason for it. Regardless, I'm pleased that one bit of discrimination is out the door -- kind of, as the decisions about "Religious objections allowing for discrimination" are still before the court. Meantime, Trump has issued guidelines (mostly red-meat for his base) to abolish protections in HHS -- here is one of the recent articles: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-tran ... ide-month/

Moon, sadly you are correct -- a huge percentage of US citizens are daily denied coverage or shunted aside after an emergency room visit as they have no insurance. The US being the only remaining developed country that treats folks so cavalierly. But, "I do give a s..." whoever them may be. Also true that the US system has become a 'drug cartel' albeit not too shabby in results with the US typically ranking somewhere between 25th - 35th in the world for health outcomes. (Not related to health costs -- those are over the top number 1 anywhere -- if more is better!)

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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by crfriend »

Faldaguy wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:43 am
(Not related to health costs -- those are over the top number 1 anywhere -- if more is better!)
It is if you're running an "insurance" company.
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Sinned
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by Sinned »

I sometimes think that your discrimination laws are a mess. With such pronouncements you seem to be going backwards and all because of the views of one man. And the more I read about Trump the more I dislike him, his policies, attitudes and manner. He's dangerous and a throwback to the gun-toting, black hating, gay-hating neanderthal stereotype. If he gets voted back in then you, as a nation, truly will have the leader you deserve. I honestly feel sorry for those of you that actually have to live in America.

Sorry, just sayin'.
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by moonshadow »

Sinned wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:25 am
I sometimes think that your discrimination laws are a mess. With such pronouncements you seem to be going backwards and all because of the views of one man. And the more I read about Trump the more I dislike him, his policies, attitudes and manner. He's dangerous and a throwback to the gun-toting, black hating, gay-hating neanderthal stereotype. If he gets voted back in then you, as a nation, truly will have the leader you deserve. I honestly feel sorry for those of you that actually have to live in America.

Sorry, just sayin'.
Yeeeyupp...

And he'll win another term too. I've completely lost all respect for this nation and most people in it. Even despite everything that monster has done, so many people still worship him.

If I could leave this country... I would.

The LGBT ruling surprised the ever living hell out of me... that's so unlike America. We're supposed to be a far right Christian nation of self righteousness and hate... what the f...... happened?

Savor the flavor... that won't happen again! In fact I suspect GOP lawmakers are racing to pass a revised civil rights law to ensure that gay and trans people are reduced back to sh!t.
-Moon Shadow
"How do you propose to control me when you can't even control yourself?"

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oldsalt1
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Re: It's all about "sex"

Post by oldsalt1 »

First sinned you feel sorry for those who have to live here. Boy for such a bad place there sure are a hell of a lot of people trying to get in


Moon unlike other countries you can leave. Pack up and get the f--k out but you wont because no matter where you went you would be worse off

What ever you feel your present circumstance is. I am sure that there are many people from other countries who would love to trade places with you.

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