On statues...

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moonshadow
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Re: On statues...

Post by moonshadow »

Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:08 pm
You've never been a black man or woman in Jim Crow era America.
No, why? Is there a statue of Jim Crow somewhere?
No need to be a smart ass... you know what I meant...
Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:08 pm
Have you ever had to attend second rate schools because of same, while others, just because they have lighter colored skin are afforded better?
Are you suggesting that children are allocated schools on the basis of their skin colour? I don't believe a word of that.
Uh... yeah. That's pretty much the way it was until the 1960's, and economic situations pitted against black America still hold some in these same scenarios to this day.
Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:08 pm
any points I've made about why the statue was erected to begin with
They were presumably erected to commemorate people who, at the time, were viewed as honourable or brave, even if today we consider that they were flawed characters.
The main article I posted from the Roanoke Times, further backed by the Wikipedia regarding the Virginia "Byrd machine" cites my evidence. Did you even bother to read them?

No... I wasn't there, neither were you though.. where is your evidence to support you view?
Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:08 pm
these statues were put in place in the early 20th century to remind blacks of their place.
If you can show evidence of that motivation in respect of a specific statue, then you would have a fair argument. Without such evidence, then I refer you to my previous point. These men were local heroes at the time and the statues weren't there to tell "blacks" anything.
See above.
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Re: On statues...

Post by Stu »

moonshadow wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:24 pm
No need to be a smart ass... you know what I meant...
My response was relevant. Crow is someone in living memory and that is a valid reason to object to a statue. His racism was the only reason he is remembered, whereas Civil War generals and British entrepreneurs are not commemorated for that. They are different in essence.
moonshadow wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:24 pm
Uh... yeah. That's pretty much the way it was until the 1960's, and economic situations pitted against black America still hold some in these same scenarios to this day.
That was 60 years ago and doesn't apply today, so I can't see its relevance. We have come a very long way since then.
moonshadow wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:24 pm
and economic situations pitted against black America still hold some in these same scenarios to this day.
That's not true and you can't prove it is. Indeed, there are notable black commentators that would call lout such nonsense, including some who have been hugely successful.
moonshadow wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:24 pm
further backed by the Wikipedia regarding the Virginia "Byrd machine" cites my evidence
They are long articles and I have other work to do, so perhaps you can show me where in the articles it states that the purpose of such statues is to remind blacks of their subordinate status. I didn't spot that.

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Re: On statues...

Post by moonshadow »

I will join others of the past stu and say, "do not take my further silence on your position as my acceptance of it".

It is clear my words are going right over your head, and we are just not going to see eye to eye on this.
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Re: On statues...

Post by oldsalt1 »

Good or bad if you don't study history and learn from it you are destined to repeat it

If you remove everything that may have been wrong what is left to compare to and learn from

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Re: On statues...

Post by Jim »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:46 pm
Good or bad if you don't study history and learn from it you are destined to repeat it

If you remove everything that may have been wrong what is left to compare to and learn from
I suggest leaving a picture of the statue with an explanation of the racist history behind it. Then one would learn more than a gallant looking statue conveys.

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Re: On statues...

Post by Ray »

That was broadly what I had heard being suggested.

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Fred in Skirts
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Re: On statues...

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Lets tear down ALL of the statues, burn ALL of the history books and ALL old news paper articles close ALL of the museums and be done with it. That way there is nothing for anyone to take offense about.

Of course someone would find something to get pissed off about and start riots and lootings over.
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Re: On statues...

Post by crfriend »

On statutes... (at least in urban areas) one finds... pigeons. And what they leave behind.

To the specific case of the Richmond statue, if the sole reason for putting it there was to glorify (a mistaken view of) the Confederacy to establish a two-class system based upon race, then I can understand the rationale -- and can support it. The Jim Crow era was vastly more reprehensible than the era of the Confederacy because by the time Crow came along the notion of one person rightfully owning another had been rightly and entirely thrown to the wayside, So de-glorifying relics of that era, and given that it is still within human memory, are understandable. However, the devil is always in the details, and how the act of changing a public space will necessarily be interpreted in all manner of ways.

I wonder what the historical Lee's opinion would be of the matter if he could be queried. There's plenty of historical evidence to show that for his time he was a bit of a forward-thinker, and that would make one wonder what he'd think of being glorified by a collection of entirely-racist throwbacks trying to bring back a dead time. I'd also be intrigued to hear "his take" on what the United States has become since his time.

A compromise might be to remove the statue from its current location -- clearly and strongly elucidating the backstory of why and using untainted rhetoric to do so -- and rededicate it in another location to the man himself, not to celebrate the flawed logic of a bunch of racists in the early 20th Century.
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Re: On statues...

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:30 pm
I'd also be intrigued to hear "his take" on what the United States has become since his time.
As would I.
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Re: On statues...

Post by Faldaguy »

Stu wrote:
We need to be clear that BLM is not simply a body seeking equality for all; it is a Marxist organisation that seeks the overthrow of capitalism and one of its chief tactics is to construct a raft of confected grievances. They absolutely do not represent all black people.
Where the h... did this come from? It sounds like some kind of twitter-proven proclamations of 'alternative facts'. I will concur no organization represent "all" of any group -- but name-calling put-downs to discredit -- sounds like that 5 year old at 1600 Penn Ave. If there is substantiation of for these proclamations, please provide it and I will readily acknowledge my error, though overthrowing capitalism might be a dang good idea.

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Re: On statues...

Post by Faldaguy »

Here is an article that says Lee opposed Statues; not the most authoritive source, but looks like direct quotes.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... -monuments

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Re: On statues...

Post by moonshadow »

Well Carl, I guess we got our answer....
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Re: On statues...

Post by Sinned »

We are having our own problem with the statues of pro-slavery people from history. Personally, I don't really take much notice of statues - they're just part of the background. And has been said, they lived in vastly different times where attitudes were different. We can't brush out the tolerance of slavery and we shouldn't glorify those people who engaged in it, but, a statue is just a representation of that person. And what's this about probably our greatest hero, Winston Churchill? I've not rally studied his life but I wasn't aware that he was obviously racist. Maybe someone could enlighten me on that. But even if he did show elements of racism he brought our country through a time of great danger and di what no-one else in the country was qualified to do. We all have feet of clay so let's just accept that and live in the present climate and deal with the problems we have now.

Incidentally, from the snippet in the firs post I thought that you were talking about statutes, not statues. I couldn't access the link because of a message saying that as I am in the EU, which technically we aren't any more, the item couldn't be displayed.
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Re: On statues...

Post by moonshadow »

Sinned wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:40 pm
I couldn't access the link because of a message saying that as I am in the EU, which technically we aren't any more, the item couldn't be displayed.
That's interesting.... I didn't realize the Roanoke Times website is blocked in the EU...

It makes me wonder is the block on our end or you all's?
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Re: On statues...

Post by Sinned »

The message I get is ( in big friendly letters ):

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact customer@roanoke.com or call 800-346-1234."

Your guess is as good as mine?
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