Protests

[Stu]

ALL LIVES MATTER

True.

I am waiting for the Black Lives Matter organisation to condemn the murder of white farmers in South Africa by black gangsters covertly supported by the government there. It looks like it will be a LONG wait.

[denimini]

Jim, I applaud you for going to the protest, risking contact with the virus ......... and the choice of pants was wise as not to be a potential target of a bad element of the police force.
It is a good and necessary cause; a section of our society who don't get the respect or justice that the majority take for granted. It is unfortunate this is in the middle of a pandemic but it is obviously a matter of priorities; COVID-19 hasn't killed anyone in less than 10 minutes from first contact.

[moonshadow]

I endeavor to deal in facts as much as possible...

I can assure everyone in the room that no lives matter.

In the grand scheme of the cosmos we are equally insignificant, and the hands of time and nature will not grant you special treatment because of whatever color you happen to be.

It is us that assign value to life.

[PatJ]

I saw the following on Facebook, and am submitting it as something to ponder.
It is not something that I personally wrote, but it speaks to me, maybe it will
speak to others.

{If my wife comes to me in obvious pain and asks, "Do you love me?",
an answer of, "I love everyone", would be truthful, but also hurtful and
cruel in the moment. If a co-worker comes to me upset and says, "My
father just died," a response of, "Everyone's parents die," would be
truthful, but hurtful and cruel in the moment. So when a friend speaks
up in a time of obvious pain and hurt says "Black lives matter," a response
of "All lives matter," is truthful. But it's hurtful and cruel in the moment.
~Doug Williford}

Yes, all lives matter, but we need to be sensitive to those who are suffering
and choose our words carefully so as not to cause harm where we never
intended.

[Stu]

Yes, all lives matter, but we need to be sensitive to those who are suffering
and choose our words carefully so as not to cause harm where we never
intended.

True. I wouldn't dream of saying to George Floyd's family that everybody dies because that would be cruel and insensitive, even though it is true. But, when people die, we don't normally go on massive protests, so the particulars don't relate to the entirety.

If this were just a protest about Mr Floyd, when the person suspected of killing him had been arrested and charged with murder, there would be no point to it. We can't prevent individual murders and, as a civilised society, the course of action we take is to investigate and launch criminal proceedings. If, however, there is a greater problem, such as the widespread killing of members of one group of citizens against another, then a protest may be an appropriate response. However, I see no evidence of that in Europe and I have yet to see any in the United States. Indeed, the statistics I have seen would suggest that a greater number of white people have been killed by black people than the other way around. If there is evidence that the state and its agents are disproportionately killing members of one race then that, too, may be a basis for protest, but again I have seen no evidence that this is occurring. I am thus drawn to the conclusion that the Black Lives Matter organisation is predicated on a myth, and that the riots, arson and looting which have accompanied the protests, are simple examples of criminality which should be met with force to protest the public.

[Fred in Skirts]

I am thus drawn to the conclusion that the Black Lives Matter organization is predicated on a myth, and that the riots, arson and looting which have accompanied the protests, are simple examples of criminality which should be met with force to protest the public.

Hear! Hear!

[Jim]

The percentage of blacks killed by police in the US is disproportionate to their percentage of the population.
See https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/1 ... isparities as one of many sources confirming this.

[Stu]

The percentage of blacks killed by police in the US is disproportionate to their percentage of the population.
See https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/1 ... isparities as one of many sources confirming this.

I am not sure that is statistically relevant, unless there are also figures to show that the proportion of blacks matches whites in a series of other parameters, e.g. convictions for violent offencers, prison population and so on. I suspect that's not the case. Here are some other statistics which suggest there is more to this than simple population proportions:

https://theatlas.com/charts/4yj9OKoQg

[Ray]

Stu

You really don’t get this. I’d throw stats at you but I don’t have the time and I can’t be bothered. You’re not worth it. If you think this is all a sham, a diversion, an unfair focus on so-called black oppression, then you’re incapable of seeing injustice that’s so enshrined in society that most cannot see it. Systemic racism. A bit like systemic misogyny (and misandry).

[Stu]

Ray

I won't comment on the US because I don't live there. If you think racism is "systemic" in the UK, then maybe you can provide a list of rights and opportunities which people in the UK are denied because of their race. The claim that black people in the UK are oppressed is a complete absurdity. You cannot back it up with evidence. The reason that "most cannot see it" is because it doesn't exist.

If no-one else will call you out, I will. Your king has got no clothes, mate.

[Ray]

I’m not going to respond to you. It’s not worth it. You have a history of hiding behind evidence based curveballs - with your arguments on toxic masculinity being comprehensively dismantled, and your point blank refusal to acknowledge the arguments put to you. Why should I bother?

[Stu]

It's OK, Ray, I knew you wouldn't respond with facts, because you don't do facts. You have swallowed a political narrative and, so far as you are concerned, that is unassailable. It's a kind of cult mentality - the cult of Woke. The whole notion of "toxic masculinity" is part of that same mindset and I have systematically dismantled that, not the other way around. But you only see what you want to see, or rather what you have been programmed to see, and any kind of reasoned challenge to that has to be shunned as heresy.

It is tragic to see what has happened in what was once a latter day Age of Reason.

[Sinned]

Stu, you're in Sweden. At least your tag says that you are. Just as I can't say what things are like in the US or Sweden as far as racism goes then you can't say what it's like here. To get that you'd have to immerse yourself in the culture and live here for more than just a few years. Even in areas of high ethnicity such as Birmingham or Bradford there isn't the intolerance that there was or is apparently shown in the US. No matter what statistics are bandied about [0] you have to get into the mindset of the people. Yes, there is some intolerance which does display itself occasionally but display of that intolerance is genuinely discouraged whether in speech or action. Get off your high horse Stu and take it from an inhabitant of these Sceptered Isles that racism does exist but isn't the problem it is in other places.

[0] I trust statistics on the basis of Homer Simpson's statement: "Aw, you can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that." Or his equally biting, "Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"

{Karl close this thread before it gets worse.}

[Stu]

Sinned,

I am as British as you are and I have lived most of my life in the UK. I may be in Sweden at this precise moment, but it is only temporary and I will be returning to live in the UK in a matter of weeks. I did not claim there was no racism in the UK - there is racism among all populations because human beings from all races sometimes exhibit this unpleasant trait towards other races. I am stating that there is no evidence of systemic racism, which is something quite different. In saying that, I am not on any "high horse" - I am simply stating what I perceive to be reality. Now, if you can show that the UK has pervasive "systemic" racism, then please provide concrete evidence. I don't think you can.

By the way, I find it regrettable that you think it necessary to close the thread. Why? Can't we discuss and debate like intelligent adults without resorting to accusations? Do we have to run away from controversial topics or silence people who have opinions we find disagreeable? I know we live in an age of "no platforming" political heretics, but I would rather not adopt that here.

[oldsalt1]

Buffalo look nobody should get hurt But as a point of reference the victim was Martin Gugino who is an activist . in this instance Instigator

he is not just some poor old man who the police picked on.

look at the pictures why did he go up and confront the police in the first place. he was told to leave but he refused.

And for all those who want to defund the police . when you are home and someone is breaking in to your house

who are you going to call " Ghost busters"