Protests

[oldsalt1]

The united nations is in no position to question the united states on any subject period.....

As far as black people being treated UNFAIRLY you know who could used some fair treatment the black couple that Mr Floyd robbed at gunpoint in 1998

even more so is the black pregnant woman that Mr Floyd robbed at gunpoint in 2007 I am sure that both of these crimes were caused by an overzealous police department.

I won't mention his 3 convictions for cocaine possession because someone would say that was only because he was an impoverished black person

I am sorry for what happened to Mr Floyd but

You can call me a racist I don't give a s--t but I am not going to stand by while bleeding heart liberals give our safety rights and the country away

[PatJ]

Sometimes we need to step back and look at the big picture.

Please take the time to do an internet search on the topic of
"violent deaths of black people are committed by?"

Black lives matter is the slogan of the day, but all the data
that I could find was that 90 - 93 percent of violent black
deaths were by black perpetrators. Black lives don't seem to
matter to some black people. This also needs to be fixed.

Yes, police often use more force than they should. Perhaps
they need additional training. Perhaps they need down time
from dealing with violent crimes. Perhaps they need counseling
after pulling dead bodies out of traffic accidents or dealing
with the trauma of being shot at, stoned, yelled at and mistreated
by the general public.

[Faldaguy]

Post by oldsalt1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:38 pm

The united nations is in no position to question the united states on any subject period.....

As far as black people being treated UNFAIRLY you know who could used some fair treatment the black couple that Mr Floyd robbed at gunpoint in 1998

even more so is the black pregnant woman that Mr Floyd robbed at gunpoint in 2007 I am sure that both of these crimes were caused by an overzealous police department.

I won't mention his 3 convictions for cocaine possession because someone would say that was only because he was an impoverished black person

I am sorry for what happened to Mr Floyd but

You can call me a racist I don't give a s--t but I am not going to stand by while bleeding heart liberals give our safety rights and the country away

The unsubstantiated accusations and information are flying right and left here; and there are legitimate concerns on all sides of this -- yet, it seems we want to jump to justify one side or the other despite the errors, logic, or data, so let me re-issue a fundamental truth I think you've all heard from your parents, teachers, and elders:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Whatever the background, our police can and should do better, help set the examples in de-escalation and resolution of violence -- not add to it.

[moonshadow]

Floyd's past makes no difference in this matter.

The duty of the law enforcement officer is to deliver the accused to a court of law..... ALIVE.

Let the courts and jury decide the fate of the accused. That's their job... not ours.

[Stu]

There are two discrete aspects to this. On the one hand, the police officer appears to have used excessive and inappropriate force on a man he had detained as a suspect. Mr Floyd should have been safe when under arrest from the moment he was restrained and was not offering violence. The fact he died in the incident, apparently and at least in no small part from the officer's actions, should be properly and independently investigated.

HOWEVER

Mr Floyd is being presented by some within the media as a wholly innocent individual who was picked on for no just reason when this does not appear to be the case. We must not be afraid to point out that this was not some saintly individual who should be considered a martyr, but a man with a past than involved serious criminality. That in no way justifies what the officer did, of course, but we must maintain honesty about it.

ALSO

The key point of movements like BLM is that his skin colour was the reason that excessive force was used against him. The suggestion there is that a white suspect who had a similar criminal history and had behaved in the same way would not have been treated in that way. That may or may not be true - I have yet top see any evidence suggesting it was the case. White suspects can be subjected to unjustified force, too, and unless there are grounds to believe that Mr Floyd's colour was the chief reason for the degree of force being used, then BLM has absolutely no case in respect to this man's death.

If black people in the US, or anywhere else, are indeed routinely subjected to discrimination, harassment or physical abuse by those in authority, then that is a serious issue and should be addressed based on actual evidence. But what we have seen of late is a series of violent acts committed including killings, violence, arson, damage to property and even looting, being caused in the name of fighting racism when it is no such thing. It is criminality hiding behind political activism and those involved should be treated accordingly.

[oldsalt1]

thank you Stu I think your post was a very succinct presentation of the reality of the situation

[Shilo]

No doubt full facts will be presented in court and the accused officer’s lawyer should ensure that the circumstances of the arrest are presented in mitigation.
For instance were the police being subjected to threats from others. What was Floyds conduct prior to his being subdued and what was the alleged crime.
I’m not trying to excuse what the police did, just trying to explore the reasons. I don’t think for one minute that this was a guy picked on for no reason apart from the colour of his skin.

[Faldaguy]

The latest suggestions I've seen are reports that both men worked at the same nightclub and had some personal issues, perhaps arising from the officer's propensity for harsh tactics; but in any case Floyd was well known to him, perhaps inflaming old animosities. However, as Moon and Stu aptly noted it is the professional officers task to curtail or stop the legal infringements with the least force necessary to restrain, stop, and/or arrest the suspect for the courts to make any judgments -- the police are not court, jury, or executioner.

As to inbalance in enforcement, I doubt there are any accurate records given the biases and attempts to hide a great deal of what happens, but I can attest that my black and other friends of color get stopped vastly more often than my WASP appearing friends -- and most share pretty similar demographic and socio-economic similarities except for skin color. I've one black friend who lived in a wealthy, primarily white, section of town -- a professional business person with nothing in his manner or life that should have caused concern to police -- but in a few short years there he was stopped 19 times whereas most of the community had never been stopped -- but he was black in a predominately white part of town.

And though I was only in AU for two years, racial discrimination there seemed to be enshrined in the politics at the local levels. I cannot speak from experience regarding EU countries; but I have lived in several others where my sense was I was getting a "pass" due to my white skin and perhaps newer vehicle or some such, than persons of color whether native or not.

[Stu]

I've one black friend who lived in a wealthy, primarily white, section of town -- a professional business person with nothing in his manner or life that should have caused concern to police -- but in a few short years there he was stopped 19 times whereas most of the community had never been stopped -- but he was black in a predominately white part of town.

Imagine you are a cop and at the beginning of each shift you are briefed about what has happened over the past 24-hours. Day after day, you are told about crimes committed and suspects were seen, and a massively disproportionate number in relation to the whole population was black. You go out on patrol and deal with crimes and again you find that you are dealing with way more black suspects than white ones. People reporting crimes to you are describing those who robbed them or assaulted them and again you are seeing the same pattern. You want to do your job, to catch offenders and keep everyone safe - including the law-abiding black members of your community. It is then hardly surprising that you are going to be checking out far more black people than white people and, in doing so, you increase your chances of catching wrongdoers.

That said, they have to get the balance right - and it sounds as though they haven't when it comes to your friend if he has been stopped so frequently. Simply going for someone on the basis of the colour of their skin in such circumstances isn't necessarily racist so much as lazy and unprofessional policing. The police know that the vast majority of black citizens are law-abiding (or they should know that!) and that they are hunting for the minority who are prolific offenders. Just as we don't want to see the police hounding and harassing people on the basis of skin colour, similarly we don't want them to be afraid to check out people who are black when the circumstances demand it for fear of being accused of racism.

[Freedomforall]

As it stands if a Tennessee State Trooper is even accused of certain crimes (domestic abuse being one of them) they are immediately terminated

Is that really true? What happened to presumed innocent until proven guilty?. If it is it seems like a charter for some malicious allegations

Moon is correct on that. It not only goes for Troopers but for police anywhere in Tennessee. Some departments have regulations in place under a rule called conduct unbecoming. If an officer receives a speeding ticket or does anything off duty that they deem unbecoming they can be fired. They are required to report anything such as a disagreement with a neighbor. Failure to do so can result in immediate termination.

[Freedomforall]

There are two discrete aspects to this. On the one hand, the police officer appears to have used excessive and inappropriate force on a man he had detained as a suspect. Mr Floyd should have been safe when under arrest from the moment he was restrained and was not offering violence. The fact he died in the incident, apparently and at least in no small part from the officer's actions, should be properly and independently investigated.

HOWEVER

Mr Floyd is being presented by some within the media as a wholly innocent individual who was picked on for no just reason when this does not appear to be the case. We must not be afraid to point out that this was not some saintly individual who should be considered a martyr, but a man with a past than involved serious criminality. That in no way justifies what the officer did, of course, but we must maintain honesty about it.

So true Stu. The blood test showed he had fentanyl and meth in his system. I heard one of the officers in a video saying they had fought with him for 10 minutes trying to get him in the back of a police car. I have been there myself and it may seem like an easy task to place a handcuffed person in the back of a car. This is so not true. The person can simply make their whole body stiff. This is passive resistance that has not even evolved to the point of active resistance. Getting a person in a vehicle who is just passively resisting requires a level of force. Any time that force is used someone is at risk of being hurt.
There have been many deaths here similar to that of George Floyd. It is termed positional asphyxiation. Floyd was hyped from the drugs and his breathing was already labored from struggle with police. This factored with the position he was in put him in the high risk category for positional asphyxiation.
We were taught to bring someone to some type of an upright position as soon as possible. I have seen this situation played out so many times and am so thankful that no one ever died under my watch. I recall one almost identical situation. I was transporting a lady on crack cocaine to jail when she broke the handcuffs. I had rolled the window down to allow more ventilation for her, as the partition does not allow for a great deal of air flow. She reached out the window after breaking the handcuffs and jumped out of my moving vehicle. She ran down the road to an electric company that was surrounded by a 12 foot high electric fence covered in razor wire. We were able to get her off the fence and had on her stomach while handcuffing her yet again. We say her up as soon as we could and then she began spitting. I have always had trouble breathing through my nose and that particular day was no different. My mouth was partially open when she began spitting. Her spit landed right in the middle of my mouth. The incident caused me much burden for the next five years of my life. I spent the rest of the day in the emergency room being examined and given various shots. I then had to go every year to be test for various blood borne diseases.

[denimini]

Floyd's past makes no difference in this matter.

The duty of the law enforcement officer is to deliver the accused to a court of law..... ALIVE.

Let the courts and jury decide the fate of the accused. That's their job... not ours.

That sums it up pretty well. The officer who killed him will get his day in court, no doubt with a competent defense team, something George Floyd never got.

[Faldaguy]

HI guys;

Just to add a little spice to this thread -- no, not really, but the attached article is from a far left journal and has its bias -- but it is for some of the statistics and history that are mostly correct for the numbers, though overblown with the capitalist and racist innuendo -- but especially for those of you on the other side of the pond, this may help give some perspective to the problems here with protest and police abuse. It seems strange to me that so many police forces around the world do quite well with few or no armaments, but since we gave the US police all the heavy battle equipment and swat teams they seem to have to employ them regardless of the real threats, often escalating and certainly intimidating much of the public as well as the suspects. Anyway, here is the article -- consider the numbers and the difference with how so many other countries manage. I lived for many years in Canada; a few in Latin America; also in NZ and AU for a couple of years and spent months of travel time in others, and it is by far that I feel more at risk of injustice in the US -- across many spectrums of the society than the other countries in which I have resided. My travels in other "more repressive countries" are too slim to comment meaningfully, but this conversation is seeking to understand the current protests in the US, England, and more developed countries for the most part, so I hope this adds some insight and not fire to the thread.

https://www.liberationnews.org/?p=48891 ... rationnews

[Uncle Al]

Sorry Faldaguy but I tried to read the article and it made me sick to my stomach
at the garbage[0] propaganda that was being put forth.

Uncle Al


[0]I used the word 'garbage' as it was the cleanest word I could use.

[Faldaguy]

Uncle Al says:

Sorry Faldaguy but I tried to read the article and it made me sick to my stomach
at the garbage[0] propaganda that was being put forth.

Uncle Al, I understand from your own bias on things, and my own admission that this was a left wing over the top take on things, that many of us would disagree with aspects of it; but what about the fundamental numbers on comparisons of incidents, population, etc in other countries -- those are pretty much the same as reported by numerous other sources. How you interpret them, explain them, or justify them is open to question and debate. But I think some of the members, especially from the EU countries do not have a sense of the differences in our policing outcomes -- be they good, bad or indifferent...there are dramatic differences in practice and outcomes. Nor do many realize the comparative percentage of person incarcerated in the US. I'm sorry, but 'garbage' (or worse) as a label does not provide enough content to contend with, unless it is meant to dismiss without elucidation.