How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

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beachlion
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by beachlion »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm
..... Do not think I condone the actions of our democratic governor Northram, Mr. Salt. In fact the actions of the state level democrats over the last six months have pushed my needle into the "red" ever so slightly, but that doesn't mean I shall kneel at Trumps feet either. He is my president yes, but he is not my king nor my god. He is a public servant, in power only because of an electrical system. I can assure you no governor or president of this nation can take credit for creating the universe, though I am suprised that one particular politician hasn't tried...
I'm afraid your auto-corrupt system took over. ;) Sparks are flying anyway.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

beachlion wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:20 pm
I'm afraid your auto-corrupt system took over. ;) Sparks are flying anyway.
Unless Diebold was involved and then it might be considered, in a limited sense, "electrical"... :twisted:
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by beachlion »

I'm afraid the notion of Diebold escapes me, even with a dive in Google. Must be my Dutch background.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

beachlion wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:20 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm
..... Do not think I condone the actions of our democratic governor Northram, Mr. Salt. In fact the actions of the state level democrats over the last six months have pushed my needle into the "red" ever so slightly, but that doesn't mean I shall kneel at Trumps feet either. He is my president yes, but he is not my king nor my god. He is a public servant, in power only because of an electrical system. I can assure you no governor or president of this nation can take credit for creating the universe, though I am suprised that one particular politician hasn't tried...
I'm afraid your auto-corrupt system took over. ;) Sparks are flying anyway.
Ah hell! :lol:

I gotta get a proper computer again... :wink:
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

beachlion wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:29 pm
I'm afraid the notion of Diebold escapes me, even with a dive in Google. Must be my Dutch background.
Diebold is a manufacturer of things like ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines) -- and voting machines -- in the United States. In an infamous leaked e-mail from a few years ago there was a blatant indication that "We will deliver the election to Trump" in Ohio (where their machines were adopted to handle the voting). Much of this will have been expunged from history as it's being written at the moment.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by beachlion »

crfriend wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:40 pm
..... Diebold is a manufacturer of things like ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines) -- and voting machines -- in the United States. In an infamous leaked e-mail from a few years ago there was a blatant indication that "We will deliver the election to Trump" in Ohio (where their machines were adopted to handle the voting). Much of this will have been expunged from history as it's being written at the moment.
I went down to the next level and found some dirty wheeling and dealing in the past. But that almost seems "normal" in the current circumstances. In the rest of the developed world it would be shocking.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

beachlion wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 11:14 pm
I went down to the next level and found some dirty wheeling and dealing in the past. But that almost seems "normal" in the current circumstances. In the rest of the developed world it would be shocking.
One cannot compare the modern USA with any of the top-tier states in the EU. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Compare instead to the Russian Federation. What that'll yield will be much less shocking.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Sinned »

Sigh! I just don't understand your voting system what with primaries [0], electoral colleges and so on. We have constituencies each with am M.P.. At election time the government is dissolved and the M.P.'s stand down. Each constituency has a number of candidates normally associated with a political party although candidates can be unaffiliated and hence called "Independents". We vote in our constituencies for a candidate and the one with the most votes [1] wins. The party with the most elected candidates is the ruling party and nominates the Prime Minister who sorts out a Cabinet from among the M.P.'s. The other parties and independents become the opposition. This lot forms the House of Commons which is different from the House of Lords which is full of geriatrics clocking in for their pay, laying about on their benches and sleeping - then they go home to their castles and build houses for doves in the middle of the lake in their grounds. Well, not really but that's the impression one gets. A nice simple system. BTW I'm just taking the Mick. Just ignore me and continue with your waffling about elections and stuff.

[0] To me a primary is a school, educating children up to age 11.
[1] Even if it's just 1 vote.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:09 am
Nor was there an economic motive to Pres. John Kennedy's call to the nation to go to the Moon and safely return. That was almost purely ideological; we wanted to prove the superiority of American science and engineering over the Soviet Union's. But before we got there, we explicitly announced we were going to the Moon "for all mankind." We even left a metal plaque up there confirming that promise.
Astonishingly, that thread arose in a conversation I had a week or so ago with a friend whom I used to work with in the very early 1980s. The thrust of the thing revolved around Apollo (for that captured everyone's imagination then) but it captured the note that of the three large-scale projects the USA was prosecuting at the time only one -- Apollo -- was successful. History has proved that the "conflict" in Vietnam was an unmitigated disaster, and president Johnson's "war on poverty" under the guise of The Great Society was an equally colossal failure. We as a society are worse off now, in an equality sense, than we were in 1965.

Some good things came out of the 1960s USA beyond Apollo. The attempt at straightening out the last of the Jim Crow laws comes to mind, but as with every other bit of "social engineering" brought with it good and bad. The 1960s were tumultuous in many ways and in many societies. One thing, though, reverberates from those days to today -- they were vastly more hopeful of a better future than what we see on the plate today. Where once there was a belief that humanity could raise itself up to that hope there is today a seemingly fatalistic acceptance that we're headed on a one-way trip downhill, never to return.

To the final sentence in the paragraph above, all I need to point to is the behaviour of folks. Where's the willingness to attempt great things? Where's the willingness to take calculated risks to achieve greatness, knowing that there is a safety-net to catch ones who miss the mark? It even shows up in fashion, to bring this one home in a way: look at what you see on the street. Is there any imagination or creativity to it? Does anyone even dare to "dress differently" than the vast herd? I'll posit that it's but a daring few -- of a generation who remember the days when we were encouraged to "think big" and to "shoot for the stars".
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:45 pm
Does anyone even dare to "dress differently" than the vast herd? I'll posit that it's but a daring few -- of a generation who remember the days when we were encouraged to "think big" and to "shoot for the stars".
Funny you should mention that... I've scaled back my wardrobe choices considerably, mainly because the economic situation is dire, and there is no safety net for people like me. It may be years before things get back to semi-normal... decades before we get back to where we were in 2019.

Our whole damned state is being held hostage by Fairfax County.

Anyway, the way things are going, I don't know if I'll even be gainfully employed by 2021. It may be time to ease off the flamboyance for a spell... survival first, and like it or not... we are a very tribal culture, and frankly living in a blue state is starting to lose its appeal.

There... I said it... at least I can admit when I'm wrong.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by oldsalt1 »

Our whole damned state is being held hostage by Fairfax County.
I would guess that this relates to

without the electoral college the whole dam country would be held hostage by New York and California

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:18 am
Our whole damned state is being held hostage by Fairfax County.
I would guess that this relates to

without the electoral college the whole dam country would be held hostage by New York and California
Well... gotta give you that one.

Indeed, the current leadership of this state (governor and legislature) often forgets southwest Virginia exist. And that leadership was elected because at least 51% of the population exist in NOVA (northern Virginia), the D.C. metro area, and whats known as the "urban crecent". This is where the majority of our cases are. And by Majority... I mean the MAJORITY, as in as of last week (haven't checked the numbers recently) there were less than 200 total covid19 cases west of Roanoke VA. Some counties haven't registered a single case yet...

And yet we're all just sitting around waiting for the "all clear" from the east.... why? Because Trump and Northram are in some kind of a pissing contest, and we the people are just the pawns...

Under the current legislation, despite having a total (house and senate) democratic lead, I think in the state senate the democrats lead by only one vote, and many state democratic senators lean moderate, thus the Senate saved us from becoming the next New York....

They still got that ridiculous $15 per hour minimum wage passed though. That will sure kill off whatever few small businesses remain in SWVA after covid19 is through with us.... I've already spoken with several business owners about it, compared to the $7.35 that exist just over the state line in Tennessee (a state that Virginia democrats forget we border), these business owners all agree there is no way they will be able to compete. Short of a federal bump to $15 (TN will NEVER do that on their own) these businesses will have to move to TN, or fold.

I still disapprove of Republicans theocratic ways, how they completely and obnoxiously ignore the separation of church and state, I disapprove of how they use the Christian faith as an excuse to make like difficult for non-Christians, eccentrics, LGBT people etc, and I also feel they are highly corrupt as well...

*sighs*

I just want a government that's fair and works.... is that too much to ask?
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:18 am
without the electoral college the whole dam country would be held hostage by New York and California
The presence of the Electoral College is highly divisive -- and thus perfect for deflecting attention away from where the real problem lies, and that's the corrupting influence of money in the electoral process. We should be focusing on THAT, not trivialities like the Electoral College.

As is said in baseball (and I imagine cricket as well), "Keep your eyes on the ball!" -- even though there are folks all over the place trying to keep you from doing so.

The Electoral College simply is not the problem at the moment. Is it a problem? Sure, but at the moment we have more worthwhile battles to fight.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Happy-N-Skirts »

I would like to avoid politics on this site. However I believe the electoral college system is corrupt. The districts have become gerrymandered to give an advantage to one party or the other. I believe in one man (or woman) one vote. In the past few elections the candidate with the highest popular vote was defeated because of the distorted weight of the electoral college. That's my dos centavos.

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

I am flattered that my post has lead to so many responses and frustrated that so many of you apparently weren't paying attention during your high school history and civics classes. I guess I'll just have to pull my academic robe, hood and mortarboard out of the back of my closet and though it over my dress. It could be worse; today's dress is nice enough, but not anything that's going to make the cover of Vogue. Appropriately enough it is blue and gold, the colors of my alma maters.

Let's see, where to start. As a matter of convenience we'll go last things first:
The presence of the Electoral College is highly divisive -- and thus perfect for deflecting attention away from where the real problem lies, and that's the corrupting influence of money in the electoral process.


There is no question that the role of money in our political process is pervasive and pernicious. In light of the Supreme Court's Citizen's United decision, what, Carl, is your strategy for reining that money in? Keep in mind, Supreme Court decisions on matters like that have the weight of the Constitution. That is, you either have to be very clever in writing a law to circumvent the decision or pass a Constitutional amendment.

Or, get the Supreme Court to change it's mind by electing a President and Senate that share your feelings about campaign finances, change the political composition of the Court and then pass a law contravening Citizen's United under the expectations that 1) someone will contest the law (slam-dunk), 2) the case will make its way to the Supreme Court (ditto) and then 3) this new court will throw out Citizen's United and uphold the new law (crapshoot).

So again Carl, pray tell, how do you propose we all work together to make all that happen?

Perhaps, looking at things that way you'll see that while popular vote vs. electoral college may or may not be a sideshow, it's also a critical piece of the puzzle because the President is the only one who can nominate Supreme Court Justices and only the Senate can award the nominee her seat on the bench.

While we're on the Electoral College vs. Popular vote, Oldsalt1 said,
without the electoral college the whole damn country would be held hostage by New York and California
. I looked up the numbers last night and found that according to the US Census Bureau as of July 1, 2019 they estimate that California has 12% of the population (and presumably the electorate) and New York State has 5.9%. Consequently, even if every single voter in California and New York were to vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate, that would only be 17.9% of the total. Far from a decisive total.

Under the Electoral College system, if the Democratic candidate gets just one vote more than the Republican in both states she gets all 84 electoral votes or 15.6% percent of the total with only 9% of the popular vote.

In the 2016 election just 88,000 voters in 3 states overturned the will of the majority of all of the US voters.

When you look at the actual numbers, it is the Electoral College system that distorts the results out of all reason.


I spent another 2 hours giving thorough answers to a number of other issues that arose, but because our website arbitrarily times out a contributor after they've been on one tropic for an hour, all of that work was LOST. I haven't got the time or interest to recreate all of that lost work so you'll all just have to do without my insights. I have complained to Carl about this before and he can't see why the current system is a real problem. I mean all I have to do is predict how long it is going to take to make all of my responses and draft them in Word -- well actually he thinks I should learn Notebook because HE thinks it's better and draft my posts in Notebook -- and then copy and paste them into the forum forgetting that process requires the poster bounce back and forth between one's wordprocessing program and one's browser.

Tell us Carl, do you want thorough, thought-out posts or just off the cuff crap!
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