How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

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pelmut
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by pelmut »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:09 am
We had zones of occupation, but only until we had poured enough money and expertise into Germany and Japan that they had regained self-sufficiency.
Money and materials, certainly, but a lot of the expertise went in the opposite direction.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

Uncle Al wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:52 am
The E.C. gives our nation just that, a level(equal) playing field.
Indeed that was the way it was intended to work, but that was then and this is now.

In this writer's opinion, the thing is as obsolete as the Jeffersonian model of the United States and is a reflection of that lost ideal in a lost time. In a world where the "playing field" is only open to the insanely rich (or their lackeys) the thing has no real place or function and tends to pervert the will of the majority.

If the various regions of the country are so different that they require "special treatment" perhaps the place is too large to be able to function properly as a single nation and might profit from being busted up into smaller, more homogeneous chunks.

In any event, there are vastly larger fish to fry in reforming the political system in the United States than the Electoral College. Let's try to get the priority order right. There's little time -- if any -- left.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Jim »

Uncle Al wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:52 am
I'm going to throw my $.02 worth on the Electoral College.

The Electoral College gives an EQUAL playing field for all Americans.
...
The whole point is that the Electoral College gives much more power to Americans that live in states with a low population. Very UNEQUAL. It gives an equal playing field for all states. California has 68 times more people than Wyoming, but only 18 times as many electoral votes. That means a Wyoming citizen has almost 4 times as much voting power for President.

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

Jim wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:09 pm
That means a Wyoming citizen has almost 4 times as much voting power for President.
It's worth recalling that the president is only one tiny part of the problem when it comes to things. There are 425 "representatives" (which aren't, and haven't been for years), 100 senators (an imperial hangover, "Rome had one, it must be right!"), 13 Supreme Court "justices" (an oxymoron in the modern world), and then we have El Heffe and his left-hand man. That's a lot of dung to shovel out, and worrying about the president deserves the sort of attention that the numbers above suggest.

The Electoral College is a problem, no doubt. It's obsolete and perverts the course of things, but in the big picture really doesn't matter all that much.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

One thing I never understood about the "equal playing field" argument is that isn't the number of electoral college votes each state has based on population anyway?

I mean, the big states like Texas, California, and New York get the most electoral votes and the smallest states (by population) get fewer.

It seems to me that the Senate, by providing two votes per state on legislative matters should even the playing field.

The president after all, isn't supposed to have law making powers anyway.

I also wonder what night happen if the Senate returns to being elected by state legislators like they used to be. I'm not endorsing this, mind you, just thought I would explore the thought experiment.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:28 pm
One thing I never understood about the "equal playing field" argument is that isn't the number of electoral college votes each state has based on population anyway?
Only partially; the smaller/less-populated states have more power per person because of the way the Electoral College is constituted. The intent was to insure that the states operating under the Hamiltonian model couldn't ride rough-shod on the states operating under the Jeffersonian model. Hence, Wyoming, primarily subsistence-existence in the Jeffersonian model has more weighting than the extremely populous New York operating under the Hamiltonian model. In aggregate, the small states have inordinate power in the Electoral College -- but that body is only involved with two officials in the system, that of the selection of the president and vice-president. That's the reason I'm not all that worried about the thing in terms of priority when it comes to fixing the mess; it's a distraction from the real problem -- the absolute control of power by the super-rich.
The president after all, isn't supposed to have law making powers anyway.
In a republic, no. The United States in the 21st century is a republic in name only. From all observable actions it's an oligarchy.

The president can propose legislation -- which congress would then consider in a vote -- but in a republic that's it. The president is the Executive which means that he has final approval (unless overridden) and the task of implementing the will of congress. Nowadays, congress has ceded much of its power to the president who increasingly rules by "Executive Order" as an emperor or dictator. Congress and the supreme court should not have allowed that shift to happen, but happen it did, and that's part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now.
I also wonder what night happen if the Senate returns to being elected by state legislators like they used to be. I'm not endorsing this, mind you, just thought I would explore the thought experiment.
That's an interesting idea, but given that the various state legislatures are fully as corrupt as the one in DC it likely wouldn't make a whit of difference.

Face it, with the cost of running a modern campaign, by the time a politician rises above the rank of local dog-catcher he's already beholden to big money, and you know the old adage about money talking.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by beachlion »

crfriend wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:21 pm
...... Face it, with the cost of running a modern campaign, by the time a politician rises above the rank of local dog-catcher he's already beholden to big money, and you know the old adage about money talking.
An old, very old, from before the USA became the USA, Dutch saying goes like: "Geld dat stom is maakt recht wat krom is." Roughly translated (without the rhyme) it means: money that is silent makes straight what is bended.

I agree with you. As soon as money enters politics it becomes a business model.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Jim »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:28 pm
I also wonder what night happen if the Senate returns to being elected by state legislators like they used to be. I'm not endorsing this, mind you, just thought I would explore the thought experiment.
If you are a Republican this would be great. The legislative voting districts in states are highly gerrymandered, giving Republican statehouse majorities where more people voted Democratic than Republican.

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Jim »

crfriend wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:27 pm
There are ... 13 Supreme Court "justices" ....
That's 4 more than I know about.
Last edited by Jim on Sun May 10, 2020 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by crfriend »

Jim wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:18 pm
crfriend wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:27 pm
There are ... 13 Supreme Court "justices" ....That's 4 more than I know about.
Yep, I committed a gaffe there. Perhaps it just seems that there are more than there really are...

Thanks for the correction!

However the concentration of power, the tenure of the seat-holders, and the seeming inability (or unwillingness) to find non-ideological members is a major problem.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by Jim »

crfriend wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:34 pm
However the concentration of power, the tenure of the seat-holders, and the seeming inability (or unwillingness) to find non-ideological members is a major problem.
Well, I do think you are right on that one!

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by oldsalt1 »

I have pretty much stayed out of things but just a couple of points

If the president isn't supposed to have law making authority what about the state governors or as they currently represent them selves state god

As far as the electorial college is concerned I don't see much chance for voter fraud there

Just a minor point

Biden has been in elected office for 44 years Schumer 38 years Pelosi 32 years and my all time favorite Waters 28

That averages out to 35.5 years each or about10 times longer than the President's 3 and 1/2 years

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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:51 pm
If the president isn't supposed to have law making authority what about the state governors or as they currently represent them selves state god
The president is not a governor and governors are not president.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

If Trump were a state governor, then he'd have a lot more direct authority... over the state he governs.

Legislativly speaking, the president have two main powers, the power of the veto pen (for the most part) and the power to sign legislation congress sends him into law.

True, most laws can not pass without executive branch approval, but the president is not the alpha and omega of lawmaking.

As for executive orders, they are supposed to pertain the matters of the executive branch proper. This is why Obama could create and executive order mandating that gender identity be a protected class in federal employment as well as federal contractors. Trump can (and did) revoke that order.

That executive order did not effect the private sector. Such law would have to come from congress first where the president would sign it into law or veto it. That being said, my understanding is federal law (like the Civil rights act of 1964) has its teeth in interstate commerce only.

Do not think I condone the actions of our democratic governor Northram, Mr. Salt. In fact the actions of the state level democrats over the last six months have pushed my needle into the "red" ever so slightly, but that doesn't mean I shall kneel at Trumps feet either. He is my president yes, but he is not my king nor my god. He is a public servant, in power only because of an electrical system. I can assure you no governor or president of this nation can take credit for creating the universe, though I am suprised that one particular politician hasn't tried...
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

Also I forgot to mention that in cases im aware, governors also can not create state law, and generally follow the same lawmaking process of the federal government, though state constitutions may vary on the exact technicals of the process...

The matter of the governors authority to take the lead in a pandemic is derived from state code, which was passed through the legislative process at some point in history... at least Northam cited the state code that gave him the authority to shut down certain businesses.
Last edited by moonshadow on Sun May 10, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Did the Country (USA) that Could Do Anything Turn Into One That Can't Do Anything

Post by moonshadow »

Examples:

Quoted below is a bit of the executive order Northram ordered back in March:

NUMBER FIFTY-FIVE (2020)
TEMPORARY STAY AT HOME ORDER
DUE TO NOVEL CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19)
To reinforce the Commonwealth’s response to COVID-19 and in furtherance of Executive
Orders 51 (March 12, 2020) and 53 (March 23, 2020) and by virtue of the authority vested in me
by Article V, Section 7 of the Constitution of Virginia, by § 44-146.17 of the Code of Virginia, I
order the following...


State code is quoted thusly:

44-146.17. Powers and duties of Governor.
The Governor shall be Director of Emergency Management. He shall take such action from time to time as is necessary for the adequate promotion and coordination of state and local emergency services activities relating to the safety and welfare of the Commonwealth in time of disasters.

The Governor shall have, in addition to his powers hereinafter or elsewhere prescribed by law, the following powers and duties:

(1) To proclaim and publish such rules and regulations and to issue such orders as may, in his judgment, be necessary to accomplish the purposes of this chapter including, but not limited to such measures as are in his judgment required to control, restrict, allocate or regulate the use, sale, production and distribution of food, fuel, clothing and other commodities, materials, goods, services and resources under any state or federal emergency services programs.

He may adopt and implement the Commonwealth of Virginia Emergency Operations Plan, which provides for state-level emergency operations in response to any type of disaster or large-scale emergency affecting Virginia and that provides the needed framework within which more detailed emergency plans and procedures can be developed and maintained by state agencies, local governments and other organizations.

He may direct and compel evacuation of all or part of the populace from any stricken or threatened area if this action is deemed necessary for the preservation of life, implement emergency mitigation, preparedness, response or recovery actions; prescribe routes, modes of transportation and destination in connection with evacuation; and control ingress and egress at an emergency area, including the movement of persons within the area and the occupancy of premises therein.

Executive orders, to include those declaring a state of emergency and directing evacuation, shall have the force and effect of law and the violation thereof shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor in every case where the executive order declares that its violation shall have such force and effect.

Such executive orders declaring a state of emergency may address exceptional circumstances that exist relating to an order of quarantine or an order of isolation concerning a communicable disease of public health threat that is issued by the State Health Commissioner for an affected area of the Commonwealth pursuant to Article 3.02 (§ 32.1-48.05 et seq.) of Chapter 2 of Title 32.1.

Except as to emergency plans issued to prescribe actions to be taken in the event of disasters and emergencies, no rule, regulation, or order issued under this section shall have any effect beyond June 30 next following the next adjournment of the regular session of the General Assembly but the same or a similar rule, regulation, or order may thereafter be issued again if not contrary to law;

(2) To appoint a State Coordinator of Emergency Management and authorize the appointment or employment of other personnel as is necessary to carry out the provisions of this chapter, and to remove, in his discretion, any and all persons serving hereunder;

(3) To procure supplies and equipment, to institute training and public information programs relative to emergency management and to take other preparatory steps including the partial or full mobilization of emergency management organizations in advance of actual disaster, to insure the furnishing of adequately trained and equipped forces in time of need;

(4) To make such studies and surveys of industries, resources, and facilities in the Commonwealth as may be necessary to ascertain the capabilities of the Commonwealth and to plan for the most efficient emergency use thereof;

(5) On behalf of the Commonwealth enter into mutual aid arrangements with other states and to coordinate mutual aid plans between political subdivisions of the Commonwealth. After a state of emergency is declared in another state and the Governor receives a written request for assistance from the executive authority of that state, the Governor may authorize the use in the other state of personnel, equipment, supplies, and materials of the Commonwealth, or of a political subdivision, with the consent of the chief executive officer or governing body of the political subdivision;

(6) To delegate any administrative authority vested in him under this chapter, and to provide for the further delegation of any such authority, as needed;

(7) Whenever, in the opinion of the Governor, the safety and welfare of the people of the Commonwealth require the exercise of emergency measures due to a threatened or actual disaster, he may declare a state of emergency to exist;

(8) To request a major disaster declaration from the President, thereby certifying the need for federal disaster assistance and ensuring the expenditure of a reasonable amount of funds of the Commonwealth, its local governments, or other agencies for alleviating the damage, loss, hardship, or suffering resulting from the disaster;

(9) To provide incident command system guidelines for state agencies and local emergency response organizations; and

(10) Whenever, in the opinion of the Governor or his designee, an employee of a state or local public safety agency responding to a disaster has suffered an extreme personal or family hardship in the affected area, such as the destruction of a personal residence or the existence of living conditions that imperil the health and safety of an immediate family member of the employee, the Governor may direct the Comptroller of the Commonwealth to issue warrants not to exceed $2,500 per month, for up to three calendar months, to the employee to assist the employee with the hardship.

1973, c. 260; 1974, c. 4; 1975, c. 11; 1981, c. 116; 1990, c. 95; 1997, c. 893; 2000, c. 309; 2004, cc. 773, 1021; 2006, c. 140; 2007, cc. 729, 742; 2008, cc. 121, 157


There ya have it...
-Moon Shadow
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