Corona Virus

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moonshadow
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:30 pm Unfortunately both parties politicized COVID, and we get screwed in the process.
Yes, that's exactly what I said earlier this summer. In 2020 Trump's flock was pushing for the vaccine and were worrying about possible shortages. In 2021, now that Biden is the president, the roles literally shifted. It's complete B.S., and you're right, we got screwed HARD in the process.

In my life I speak with very intelligent, albeit conservative people, my bind boggles that they can't see how the political machine has manipulated them.

I don't know what's happened, but it seems everyone I meet in the real world is anti-vaxx. It's really eroding my faith in humanity, or in Americans anyway... :|

Seriously, I've not talked to anyone who's had the jab, or at least has voluntarily had the jab in what seems like forever.

It's like "liberals". Personally I'm starting to suspect they are like unicorns. They don't exist. When I log on here at skirtcafe, I wonder if I'm talking to real people on the other end, or is this just some kind of matrix trick. But seriously, I suspect most of them just keep to themselves locally. If they're anything like me, they don't feel like getting into a damned political arguement every time we turn around, and as I've stated in another thread, I don't really waste time talking politics locally... everyone in my region knows everything about everything. They're the masters of the universe... It probably didn't help when Trump ran on the platform that "Real American's support Donald Trump". So what does that make the rest of us? Illegals? Fake Americans? I didn't realize that my citizenship rested on my affirming an emperor to the throne. Yeah, around here [Appalachia] Trump is God and f---k anyone who believes otherwise.

That's why the population of Russell County VA decreased 8% between 2010 and 2020, that's why there's no jobs here, that's why there's no retail here, that's why there's nothing to do here, that's why kids graduate high school and move on down the line here... but yeah, they know everything. Blame a libtard... uh-huh... :roll:
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
Big and Bashful
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Big and Bashful »

moonshadow wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:36 am But remember, the key takeaway.

Covid can no longer be blamed for destroying our way of life.

We've had a solution since late last year.

Once again, as with virtually everything else, we [humans] are our own worst enemy.
Well said! I can't argue with this statement. It's kind of Darwinian.
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Freedomforall
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Freedomforall »

I think sums a lot of this all up.

You can only meet people where they are.
The donkey told the tiger, "The grass is blue."
The tiger replied, "No, the grass is green ."
The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?"
The lion replied: "If you believe it is true, the grass is blue."
The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."
The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence."
The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ′′The grass is blue, the grass is blue..."
The tiger asked the lion, "Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?"
The lion replied, ′′You've known and seen the grass is green."
The tiger asked, ′′So why do you punish me?"
The lion replied, "That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!"
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t.
When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.
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crfriend
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Re: Corona Virus

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moonshadow wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:20 pmIn my life I speak with very intelligent, albeit conservative people, my bind boggles that they can't see how the political machine has manipulated them.
"Liberaism" and "conservatism" are, sadly, now-obsolete terms turned into political slurs rather than having any real meaning. In the classical meaning, a whole lot of highly-intelligent types tend towards "conservatism" -- i.e. "Don't change what doesn't need changing." This lends stability to the entire structure and offsets those who would tend to change things for the mere change. Stability counts. Are classical conservatives opposed to change that is clearly necessary? Not in the least. In fact, it's when they come 'round to the realisation that things need to change, it's likely bloody well time to change things.
I don't know what's happened, but it seems everyone I meet in the real world is anti-vaxx. It's really eroding my faith in humanity, or in Americans anyway... :|
There's an under-current of anti-vaccine types up here in the northeast, but they're in a minority and are starting to attract the attention of those who have evaluated the risks of accepting the vaccine -- and there are risks -- and had decided that the responsible thing to do, not just for themselves but for the good of society, are beginning to push back. I view this as good news, but given the political climate it's likely to become a rear-guard action. The dummies, the gullible, and the idiots have probably won. If that class were to simply die off it might be a blessing -- and a vindication of Darwin's notion but translated into a different environment where intelligence and critical thought are the keys to survival not simple physical prowess -- for that's the world that humans now inhabit. Unfortunately, that is not likely to happen because society has a, perhaps misplaced, belief that all humans are precious, not just the intellectually adept who can make informed decisions based on science and fact. (There's also the problem of the morass of misinformation and outright disinformation that's being spread.)

I still chuckle at a cartoon I saw on LinkedIn which portrayed the Four Horsemen (War, Pestilence, Famine, and Death) with a fifth one riding alongside. Death looked over and asked, "Who in Hell are you?" The response was, "Misinformation." We reap the seeds we sow.
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Gusto10
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Gusto10 »

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-s ... =windirect

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... =windirect

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... =windirect

All interesting considering the numbers of breakthrough in case of double vaccinated.
And I experienced the covid like a flue.
Ray
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Ray »

The first two examples are statistically meaningless - so I’m going to ignore them.

The last example just emphasises the reduction in hospitalisations per case for vaccinated individuals. We know this already.

So there you go. The vaccine works well with some exceptions - which the stats have told us from the start. Do you now agree this, Gusto?
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Coder »

If you read through the article, it leads to a Yahoo article which explains:
"Mostly I just wanted to jump on and continue to encourage people to get vaccinated," Wilson said. "I did end up in hospital, but that is as a precautionary because I do have underlying chest and lung issues."
I had an unvaccinated friend who got COVID and was hospitalized (ER, then a few days later ICU) - not because he had symptoms but because the hospitals had the capacity and they wanted to observe him because of underlying conditions. I'm not surprised if they took extra precautions with her like they did my friend.
Is he hospitalized? Currently "no", it would seem. With his older age, he would normally be at higher risk for bad side-effects. We shall see how this plays out, but as opposed to non-vaccinated, he's got a good chance he'll come out fine. Probably will receive monoclonal antibodies.
From the article:
"Although attack rates, hospitalizations, and deaths were higher among unvaccinated than among vaccinated persons, duration of positive serial test results was similar for both groups," the agency wrote in the report.
Delta is far more contagious / spreadable, we know that - that's why a lot of localities are reinstating mask mandates. I will note while vaccinated did contract COVID, prisoners are akin to living in the same *house* (or think of it as a very unpleasant, beached cruise ship). 92% of unvaccinated contracted COVID, whereas 69% of vaccinated. With a large population, that difference is enough to help slow the spread in the general population when you might only have brief (hour, two hour) exposures to one another. If we look back to the cruise ship's at the beginning of the pandemic, the original COVID spread far less, though they may have taken more precautions and we may be slipping due to pandemic fatigue.


Bottom line: Yes, there are breakthrough cases, just look at what happened on "The View" this week. But as a %, vaccinated fare far better than unvaccinated. I have never been happy with the fact that the vaccine doesn't provide sterilizing immunity, it is not a silver bullet. Neither is contracting COVID - I know family members who've gotten COVID twice. It's basically a crapshoot, but when you look at large populations the vaccine helps reduce mortality, hospitalizations.
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Re: Corona Virus

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Gusto10 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:39 pmAll interesting considering the numbers of breakthrough in case of double vaccinated.
And I experienced the covid like a flue.
As Ray pointed out, the first two are statistically meaningless. The last points up that the vaccine confers resistance to the virus, including the currently circulating variants.

What's the point? If you're wilfully trying to dissuade folks from getting vaccinated you're heading for a banning because you're being societally irresponsible. Sowing FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) is not welcome in the face of this. Stop it. The "please" was deliberately omitted.
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Coder
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Re: Corona Virus

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Ray wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:08 pm The first two examples are statistically meaningless - so I’m going to ignore them.
Exactly. While it's easy to freak out/obsess over one breakthrough case, or obsess over one anti-vaxx covid death, it's not useful from an analysis standpoint to point to either and say "Ah! See? This will happen to you!". It's much better to look at the body of research, statistics, and so forth and come to conclusions and decisions based on the overall numbers. While outspoken anti-vaxx individuals are "ripe" for pointing out, as they have an outsized influence on people's decisions, statistically their COVID case (and untimely death) are meaningless as I know a *lot* of antivaxx people who've gotten COVID and survived, no worse for the wear. When I chat with them... they don't have any personal experience with a COVID death (maybe one), and have a lot of experience with their whole family getting COVID and surviving.

The bigger problem with COVID isn't individual outcomes, which makes it such a hard thing to discuss with some people. The main challenge with covid is in the hospital system - with a highly transmissible "flu" that has a 5-27% case fatality rate in the elderly*, it’s difficult if not impossible for hospitals to do surgery, have safe testing without risk to their patients.


[*]https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... age-group/
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Gusto10 »

crfriend wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:32 pm
Gusto10 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:39 pmAll interesting considering the numbers of breakthrough in case of double vaccinated.
And I experienced the covid like a flue.
As Ray pointed out, the first two are statistically meaningless. The last points up that the vaccine confers resistance to the virus, including the currently circulating variants.

What's the point? If you're wilfully trying to dissuade folks from getting vaccinated you're heading for a banning because you're being societally irresponsible. Sowing FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) is not welcome in the face of this. Stop it. The "please" was deliberately omitted.
It were only three news articles in one day.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub especcialy the last porargraph before the foornotes.
It's everybody's own dicision whether or not to get vaccinated. As the European Parlement pointed out with their resolution 2361 no one may be put under pressure to be vaccinated. Also, one should be fully informed on the eefects of the vaccins as the trial is still in stage 3 which requires a controlgroup.
And carl if you seek again a reason to ban me, please do so. It seems to be the only way out of this "hotel Califonia". But do remember that those who voice their sercond thoughts on what's happening, the world as described by George Orwell (1984) and what is described in the book by Klaus Schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum, is the world of G Orwell ought to be respected as much as those who tow the governments line.
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Big and Bashful »

Gusto10 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:39 pm https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-s ... =windirect

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... =windirect

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... =windirect

All interesting considering the numbers of breakthrough in case of double vaccinated.
And I experienced the covid like a flue.
No-one said the vaccines were 100% effective, so what's your point?
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Coder »

Gusto - thousands of articles are written every day - and breakthrough cases are probably media gold right now. If all the breakthrough cases were published as articles, and the same with unvaccinated cases, the unvaccinated would dwarf the number. The reason these get attention are because they are famous people, and they got the jab.

Look, I’m basically in agreement with a lot of your concerns - or in some cases I agree with your right to believe them - although this is a private forum so the owners get to decide what flies. I’m not in favor of banning you - I realize I don’t get a vote :D, but instead of posting links with a sentence and little context, explain why these things are so important to post.

I think people don’t quite understand that the vaccine is not foolproof (hence the media interest). But it’s also effective, and that means a lot when you personally experience testing delays, healthcare delays or other restrictions because of covid. Some of those restrictions can be non-sensical, sometimes our politicians flaunt their own restrictions (I think there should be a law that boots them out of office when they violate them), but sometimes they are reasonable and prudent. I’m happy in my bunker of solitude… but it would be nice if certain things could be a little more normal and if the vaccine gets us there the fastest, then great!

Both of my parents had to have surgery in one form or another this year, and both times I was unable to be there when they went under. It’s more unsettling dropping a family member off at a hospital entrance, assuming they’ll be treated properly by the nurses, their needs will be met when in recovery, and clear and proper communication with the dr’s afterwards. We get good healthcare, but I still like to have an extra pair of eyes on the vitals, and talk with the nurses about stuff.

I realize there’s also a lot of controversy over whether the restrictions are necessary - I can say in healthcare settings they are. If you have in a nursing home or hospital setting uncontrolled covid spread, there will be a lot of dead people. Period. I think when going to the hospital there SHOULD be an expectation of germ control - as best as possible, and covid spreads too dang fast. Outside of that setting… I’m less convinced it is possible - but we do our best and carry on. Part of that is a personal decision on being vaccinated. There’s a MORAL (ethical?) obligation to be mindful of ourselves if we get sick, and if we aren’t vaccinated to be cautious in what we do and where we go.
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Ray »

Test (sorry - my response kept getting lost)
Last edited by Ray on Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corona Virus

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gusto, I fail to see how you contend that the vaccine is still in phase 3 testing. Pfizer and BioNTech say that they finished phase 3 in 18th November 2020 https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-relea ... 19-vaccine. AstraZenica said they had completed phase 3 testing by 22 March 2021 https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centr ... point.html. I'm sure there are other examples.

The vaccines have finished testing, unless you consider the live implementation one huge testing phase. However you look at it and whatever cases/figures/statistics you dredge up the covid vaccination programme has ben a warranted success. Now whether you get yourself vaccinated or not, and that is your right, is up to you but stop trying to convince others not to. You are not just swimming against the tide, you are swimming against a tsunami. In the end the statistics say that more unvaccinated will die of covid than vaccinated.

And no I'm not in favour of banning you and you shuldn't be just because of your contra stance on a single topic.
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Re: Corona Virus

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Sinned wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:34 pmAnd no I'm not in favour of banning you and you shuldn't be just because of your contra stance on a single topic.
And I don't particularly want to pull the trigger because of the wails and screams of "Net-NAZI!" that will follow. However, posting socially irresponsible things in public fora needs to be addressed somehow, and I believe that my stance of socially irresponsible is being wilfully ignored in this case. The numbers are in. Vaccinations reduce the consequence of symptoms even where vaccines "fail" (in Gusto's world). Spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) is irresponsible. If someone has a bona-fide reason for not getting vaccinated (e.g. allergy to the ingredients in the vaccine) then not getting the jab is warranted; however, in the vast majority of cases the vaccine grants some level of resistance to infection.

Are the vaccines perfect? No. Do they help the overwhelming majority? Yes. The numbers are in. Pay attention to the numbers, not the hysteria.
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