Corona Virus

[Ray]

Gusto, in your response to Coder, you state that people blindly believe what their governments say.

I would take issue with that - but I would agree that people believe what their governments say when it is backed by science, critically appraised by the press, and makes sense.

What’s the alternative? Listen to unqualified individuals who question with no conceptual framework (questions without purpose), cite erroneous data from non peer-reviewed sources, and peddle FUD as Carl points out?

No thanks. I’ll listen to the science - and will avoid those who deliberately (not medically related) will not get the vaccine.

[Ray]

Gusto

While I’m here, you stated in a previous post that EU Resolution 2361 was passed by the European Parliament - forbidding the mandatory use of vaccines.

This is wrong.

1. It was the Parliamentary Assembly for the Council of Europe (PACE) which passed the resolution. That’s not the same as the European Parliament.

2. The resolution is not binding in law. It has no legal force.

3. The resolution has influence in the EU. That’s 27 countries. The other 165-167 countries around the world are completely unaffected.

Here’s a link to Reuters - generally a respected source.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SL1N2LM1N1

Here’s the link to PACE

https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html

[crfriend]

Your response to me was confusing and the link was to a huge mass of data.

That's the entire basis of the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) concept -- get people so confused that they don't know what to believe and will be more susceptible to being led around by the nose.

It's all going to plan.

[geron]

3. The resolution has influence in the EU. That’s 27 countries. The other 165-167 countries around the world are completely unaffected.

This may need a little clarification. The Council of Europe has 47 member states (which is 20 more than belong to the EU) and the UK is among them. It is not the same body as the Council of the European Union.

[Coder]

Regardless, they just don't see the connection. I've had numerous conversations with COVID-deniers, and while their reasoning isn't, well, reasoned, I just can't figure out what it will take to get through to them.

The same can be said of pro vaxxers who all accept without thought what is said by their governments.

I run into those people too - I question everything my gov't says - and I think there are people who read the science, try to understand it regardless of what their gov't says.

Furthermore, there are basically more than two groups, 1) vacced, 2) non vaccid and non immuun per illness, 3) immuun, non vacced due to having contracted covid, 4) non immuun non vacced for reason of their health.

Here's my impression of the situation - and this is from a country with good healthcare. The reason vaccines are pushed so strongly is because they are a known, measurable quantity. You get the vaccine, you are confirmed one less host for the virus, period (with some exceptions). The larger the number of #2, #3 and #4 the larger the uncertainty of outbreaks in a region.

Dr's, nurses operate with limited/incomplete/incorrect information. Patients don't know what kind of test they get - whether it is a PCR, saliva, or rapid test. Tests aren't consistent across the board, nor are they able to be given consistently. One of the big concerns by a lot of people (me included) is that PCR tests over-diagnosed COVID by running far too many cycles. If that's the case, how do you know your COVID diagnosis wasn't the flu? How sure are you that the test - hopefully PCR and not rapid - you got is detecting COVID, and not a fragment of the test's own material? You don't, at least not 100%. There are many covid-like symptoms - loss of smell/taste is one - blood clots are another - and obviously getting the flu during the summer is a red flag for COVID (bud some common colds are on the rise due to our lack of exposure to one another). But none of this is a guarantee like a vaccine.

Add in all that uncertainty and how do you - as a government - balance all of this? Do you tell people that getting COVID is protective, even if there's not enough research yet to be sure? The science tells us that the vaccine builds antibodies, so at a simple level - a typical government - one-size-fits-all solution is - give everyone the shot - and they are guaranteeing a certain level of immunity for the public. If everyone gets COVID at the same time our health system will crash - look at some of our states at the beginning of the pandemic - or even some now. We have a monoclonal antibody shortage right now - but if people would have taken some basic precautions in those states, this would not be happening right now.

Finally - you - I - the people reading this - might be very well aware of: our health, health history, COVID history, testing history, right down to what kind of test we got and when. But that's a lot of information to be aware of all the time. Even electronic health records can be incorrect (happened to my family members). Being vaccinated is such a simple "point in time" data point that most people can be expected to recall it, and they get a handy card to help them remember if they don't. Heck, I spent a few days searching for my MMR card when there was concern measles was on the rise, and I didn't want to get re-vaccinated.

I'd love for tailored, person-specific health care - we barely have that today for individuals who have good health care, how do you solve that problem for an entire country? I'm not advocating forced vaccinations, but there is a strong reason for encouraging vaccinations.

[Gusto10]

Regardless, they just don't see the connection. I've had numerous conversations with COVID-deniers, and while their reasoning isn't, well, reasoned, I just can't figure out what it will take to get through to them.

The same can be said of pro vaxxers who all accept without thought what is said by their governments.

I run into those people too - I question everything my gov't says - and I think there are people who read the science, try to understand it regardless of what their gov't says.

Furthermore, there are basically more than two groups, 1) vacced, 2) non vaccid and non immuun per illness, 3) immuun, non vacced due to having contracted covid, 4) non immuun non vacced for reason of their health.

Here's my impression of the situation - and this is from a country with good healthcare. The reason vaccines are pushed so strongly is because they are a known, measurable quantity. You get the vaccine, you are confirmed one less host for the virus, period (with some exceptions). The larger the number of #2, #3 and #4 the larger the uncertainty of outbreaks in a region.

Dr's, nurses operate with limited/incomplete/incorrect information. Patients don't know what kind of test they get - whether it is a PCR, saliva, or rapid test. Tests aren't consistent across the board, nor are they able to be given consistently. One of the big concerns by a lot of people (me included) is that PCR tests over-diagnosed COVID by running far too many cycles. If that's the case, how do you know your COVID diagnosis wasn't the flu? How sure are you that the test - hopefully PCR and not rapid - you got is detecting COVID, and not a fragment of the test's own material? You don't, at least not 100%. There are many covid-like symptoms - loss of smell/taste is one - blood clots are another - and obviously getting the flu during the summer is a red flag for COVID (bud some common colds are on the rise due to our lack of exposure to one another). But none of this is a guarantee like a vaccine.

Add in all that uncertainty and how do you - as a government - balance all of this? Do you tell people that getting COVID is protective, even if there's not enough research yet to be sure? The science tells us that the vaccine builds antibodies, so at a simple level - a typical government - one-size-fits-all solution is - give everyone the shot - and they are guaranteeing a certain level of immunity for the public. If everyone gets COVID at the same time our health system will crash - look at some of our states at the beginning of the pandemic - or even some now. We have a monoclonal antibody shortage right now - but if people would have taken some basic precautions in those states, this would not be happening right now.

Finally - you - I - the people reading this - might be very well aware of: our health, health history, COVID history, testing history, right down to what kind of test we got and when. But that's a lot of information to be aware of all the time. Even electronic health records can be incorrect (happened to my family members). Being vaccinated is such a simple "point in time" data point that most people can be expected to recall it, and they get a handy card to help them remember if they don't. Heck, I spent a few days searching for my MMR card when there was concern measles was on the rise, and I didn't want to get re-vaccinated.

I'd love for tailored, person-specific health care - we barely have that today for individuals who have good health care, how do you solve that problem for an entire country? I'm not advocating forced vaccinations, but there is a strong reason for encouraging vaccinations.

One of the reasons i'm hesitant, is that civil servants, which I meet at my favourit "waterhole" indicated that they had no more information on the problem as you and I. More recent one of the top staff members of the department for health had a interview with a well respected newspaper stating that he changed position for reason that he didn't want to set out the course to be taken as the government had to do as if they kenw all to start of with and had no knowledge at all. At the same time I learned the the lab of one of the pharmacutical companies had been refurbished and enlarged first in 2015 (when the lab in Wuhan, build by the French (see Franceinfo), was handed over to the Chineese, and again in late 2019 when the first indications of covid 19 had become public. In 2003 the French had given the Chinese 3 mobile BSL3 labs. Do note that Wuhan has a "French corner" where amongst others Stellantis (Peugeot, Citorën, Fiat, Jeep, etc.) has factories.

[Ray]

Gusto,

So you’re hesitant because you meet people at a bar who don’t know any more than you do. Civil servants - not scientists. And based on these - opinions- you are hesitant about taking a vaccine which is proven to reduce Covid deaths, reduce the spread of the virus, and whose side effects are less risky than catching Covid.

Despite all the evidence - around the world - from multiple scientific sources - you ignore that. You speak to people in a bar and you believe whatever they say. Whatever they say.

Do you have any idea how that makes you look? Do you believe that your views retain any credibility?

Carl - I think we have a busted flush here. Laugh, ignore, move on.

[Sinned]

Just to throw another spanner in the works here is an article indicating that SCIENTISTS are confident of a tablet to treat, not cure, covid. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medica ... li=BBoPWjQ.

You all will not wear gusto down. Despite his protestations his stance is based on emotion and not logic. I have the same with my wife and skirts and feel just as much that I am beating my head against a brick wall and the wall is winning.

[Coder]

Just to throw another spanner in the works here is an article indicating that SCIENTISTS are confident of a tablet to treat, not cure, covid. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medica ... li=BBoPWjQ.

This is actually quite exciting - because it could let us catch covid, build immunity, and be much easier to distribute.

[moonshadow]

Ah, who can argue advice rendered from a liquor joint...?

[crfriend]

You all will not wear gusto down. Despite his protestations his stance is based on emotion and not logic. I have the same with my wife and skirts and feel just as much that I am beating my head against a brick wall and the wall is winning.

My problem with Gusto is not his opinion (faulty as I think it is), but the way he's presenting it so as to influence others using the FUD tactic which is socially irresponsible. I couldn't give a dram whether he's vaccinated or not, that's his decision -- it's the relentless harping on sowing confusion into the mix where cohesion is what's needed at the moment. If he's not vaccinated, I just hope he stays well away from me and those dear to me.

On a pill to treat the virus, that'd be a boon because there'd likely be less "suspicion" about it. I just read about that in the scrolling captions on the TeeVee news this evening so really know nothing substantial about it. I know that Salk developed an oral vaccine for polio quite a while ago, and it went a long way indeed, but the tactics in use then are not the tactics of now.

[Elisabetta]

You know what I find so ironic? Trump was scared we'd not have enough vaccines for the American people. Since Biden took office now everyone is against getting vaccinated because the President isn't Trump.So here's my question: Would you still not get vaccinated if Trump was the President again? If in 2024 Trump was pushing the vaccines hard just as Biden is today what would your initial thought be?

Please no fighting am not asking to stir up a Political war I am just super curious.Please remain civil and don't get the thread locked.I am just really baffled at how everyone is up tight on getting vaccinated. It's your choice and I'm not against you not being vaccinated I'm just trying to understand the big deal against it.

[Freedomforall]

I think it is interesting how we humans love to categorize and label. We seemed to have been doing this a long time. We label and categorize almost everything. This topic is no exception, pro-vaccine vs. anti-vaccer.

I have friends on both sides. Dr. Robert Malone invented the mRNA vaccine and he has more than one video circulating about his thoughts on vaccinating everyone. He is well spoken and extremely knowledgeable. He seems to have more of a grasp on things than our government does. He has said in numerous videos that forcing everyone to get vaccinated could actually cause mutations in the virus and cause it to become a "super" virus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUaDSQki0Qw

Just trying to present another side here.

[crfriend]

[...] has said in numerous videos that forcing everyone to get vaccinated could actually cause mutations in the virus and cause it to become a "super" virus.

Humans are no more going to "force the virus to mutate" any more than we're likely to land on the sun any time soon. Viruses mutate on their own according to nature. With the vaccines we were hoping to put a dent in its replication process to slow it down, thereby limiting the amount of time it has to mutate in the human population.

And we almost did. The brass ring was there to be grabbed, and we failed to take the chance at victory.

[Freedomforall]

Carl,

Thank you for commenting on my post. I am not qualified to speak to the legitimacy of Dr. Malone's claim. I am curious as to how you feel his claim is not valid. You said viruses mutate according to nature. Introducing a vaccine is not nature.
Do you think the doctor pursuing an agenda against the other vaccine companies? What do you think his motivation for saying this is?

Are you saying that we could have stopped the Flu from mutating and introducing new strains every year, using that same logic?