Corona Virus

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Coder
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Coder »

The problem with the current crop of anti-vaxxers and COVID-deniers (I don't like calling them out this way, but these are the simplest descriptions) is that their reasoning is not - it's very unreasoned. They deny basic science fact, biology 101, ignore real research, refer to anecdote and "personal experience" of a few hundred patients (but ignore or don't have any randomized clinical trials!). The QUALITY of their discourse is so poor, it's exhausting to debunk, and not really worth the time.

I ran across this site which attempts to "debunk" some of these claims, and refute them in as clear of a way as possible:

https://respectfulinsolence.com

While the author occasionally touches on political issues (and let's face it, this pandemic has been politicized), most of it is a running commentary on a particular topic of their choosing.
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crfriend
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:15 pmThe QUALITY of their discourse is so poor, it's exhausting to debunk, and not really worth the time.
That's part of the scheme that's in play; they throw enough random noise out and people start to get confused (Uncertainty), begin to lose focus (Doubt), and ultimately get scared (Fear), and with that the miscreants have won.

If an individual holds a valid well-thought-out reason for not getting a jab then I'll accept that. What I'm not going to allow to happen is that the forum here gets a reputation for sowing FUD in the face of adversity; that's just plain socially irresponsible. A big problem, though, is that FUD-mongers won't take "No" for an answer, don't respond well to views contrary to their own, and if force is used to counter their "arguments" are the first to scream, "Censorship!"
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Ray
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Ray »

Gusto10 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:25 pm
Ray wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:30 pm Gusto

When you

(a) respond to credible evidence with similar evidence

(b) respond to a statement or question with something which is not your own question

(c) stop providing links to discredited or biased individuals

(d) engage in a debate around peer-reviewed data

(e) stop evading or avoiding critical questions or commentary

(f) tell us exactly why you don’t believe in a vaccine (note the spelling)

..then you will see that the prejudice does not lie at the door of the many individuals who seek to engage with you.

If you do not adhere to the above examples of guidance - which the rest of us do adhere to - then you’re going to be ignored or ridiculed.

For my part, i welcome challenge. I want to hear of strong reasons as to why vaccines should not be used. I may learn something.

However, if that argument is not based on facts and science, then I will disregard you. If you refuse to engage in debate, I will again disregard you. Finally, if you keep posting links to discredited sources, I won’t even bother looking at your posts.
Ray,

The NHS indicated that the vaccine by itself is not the answer.

All I tried to do is to get people interested, put on theur thinkingcap and ask themselves if they are satisfied by what is told by governments, or do they want to make their own choice in respect of being vaccinated. I'll respect anybody who has chosen after having made an assesment of what is best for him/her. I do hope for the same respect. My gutfeeling was that things didn't and don't add up. That's why I started digging and tried to share what I found hoping that others would become curious also. Thus well construed pro's and con's. Such to no avail.
Well you failed. See my six points above.

FUD.
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Sinned
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Sinned »

gusto, if it was a bad example then you shoud have said so. Considering your previous posts a rational assumption would be that it was something supporting your anti-vaxx stance. The NHS has never said that the vaccine is the whole answer but it is the best answer we have at a reasonable cost and it has been demonstrated several billion times now to work. Current research is providing new medications to relieve some of the worse effects of the virus in order to minimise the time required for the patient to resume productivity or even to live.

As for most of us here we follow the science and the science says it works. Not perfectly, not every time but enough to make it overwhelmingly successful.
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Gusto10 »

crfriend wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:41 pm
Coder wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:15 pmThe QUALITY of their discourse is so poor, it's exhausting to debunk, and not really worth the time.
That's part of the scheme that's in play; they throw enough random noise out and people start to get confused (Uncertainty), begin to lose focus (Doubt), and ultimately get scared (Fear), and with that the miscreants have won.

If an individual holds a valid well-thought-out reason for not getting a jab then I'll accept that. What I'm not going to allow to happen is that the forum here gets a reputation for sowing FUD in the face of adversity; that's just plain socially irresponsible. A big problem, though, is that FUD-mongers won't take "No" for an answer, don't respond well to views contrary to their own, and if force is used to counter their "arguments" are the first to scream, "Censorship!"
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by moonshadow »

For the last time gusto, the mods run the forums as they see fit. It's their right, they're the ones paying the bills.. I happen to think the moderation team is very reasonable in what they allow.

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Elisabetta
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Elisabetta »

Gusto10 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:22 pm
crfriend wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:41 pm
Coder wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:15 pmThe QUALITY of their discourse is so poor, it's exhausting to debunk, and not really worth the time.
That's part of the scheme that's in play; they throw enough random noise out and people start to get confused (Uncertainty), begin to lose focus (Doubt), and ultimately get scared (Fear), and with that the miscreants have won.

If an individual holds a valid well-thought-out reason for not getting a jab then I'll accept that. What I'm not going to allow to happen is that the forum here gets a reputation for sowing FUD in the face of adversity; that's just plain socially irresponsible. A big problem, though, is that FUD-mongers won't take "No" for an answer, don't respond well to views contrary to their own, and if force is used to counter their "arguments" are the first to scream, "Censorship!"
There are only a few rules here at the SkirtCafe

1. ABOVE ALL: Respect for others at all times. No profanity/swearing. No personal insults.
2. No politics, unless related to skirts/kilts. No religion, unless related to skirts/kilts. These topics were banned because they lead to endless flame wars.
3. SkirtCafe is a family-friendly fashion forum. No adult material. No discussion of clothing not meant to be seen in public, unless it affects clothing that IS meant to be seen. Underwear is NOT public fashion.
4. Feel free to post pictures suitable for public display. Indecent or immodest pictures will be removed, regardless of intent.
5. No female screen names (unless you are a woman). We are committed to gender honesty.
6. No discussion of artificial body parts or pieces of clothing meant for body parts that men do not have. That is not men's fashion.
7. Please, posts need to be in English. We unfortunately do not have the resources to deal with non-English language posts. There are a variety of skirted men's on-line communities in other languages.
8. If you think another member has broken the rules or has otherwise done something out of line, please consider sending email or a private message a moderator. Moderators have the final say on what is or is not appropriate on SkirtCafe. Moderators are: Bob, crfriend, Uncle Al, and Milfmog.
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Coder
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Coder »

Regarding what I wrote:
The QUALITY of their discourse is so poor
I'll explain what I meant, and leave it at that.

There are facts we know with certainty - physical constants and mathematical concepts (we may be ever refining those - speed of light - and so forth) - but how they work and their existence isn't questioned. Same for things like atoms - even though we might not be able to explains exactly what they are made of, we have some basic understanding that everyone agrees on when it comes to electrons, protons, etc...

The same can be said for biology - but it gets more murky when we start discussing proteins, genes, DNA, etc... Often we know what outcomes are, but we can't necessarily prove the mechanisms behind them. Or there are legitimate disagreements about how cells process certain proteins.

The problem I have with most anti-vaxxers and COVID deniers (again, I don't like using these terms because I think one can have a reasoned stance against the current crop of vaccines at a personal level, and I think there should be broad room to discuss different ways on how to handle COVID at a national level), is that they get basic biology wrong.

When they come out and explain basic biological process incorrectly, you have to start questioning their other conclusions. If they are wrong about a BASIC fact (for instance, how a nucleus works, how RNA works), how can they be right about these new/scary things they are telling everyone? Their words have consequences. I try to stay away from linking from any site short of a NIH or JAMA article, because there's far too much at stake. The other tactic they take - as do some reputable people - is they throw out words like "nanotechnology" or "chemicals" as if those two things were inherently evil. Nanotechnology is just the scale at which it operates, and there are legitimate concerns that come with the field. Chemicals are building blocks of the world, including my favorite one of all, H2O.
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:51 pmChemicals are building blocks of the world, including my favorite one of all, H2O.
Oooh, dihydrogen monoxide! Dangerous stuff in too-large quantities, is used extensively as an industrial solvent, and, with a splash of lemon can be very refreshing on a hot summer day.

Joking aside, the main problem with the FUD mongers and conspiracy theorists isn't whether they believe their own bilge or not, it's that they're trying to confuse the issue so others will follow their commands rather than guidance from responsible sources. That's what makes them pernicious -- and they're frequently genius manipulators. Look at the last recitation of the forum rules, verbatim, without recourse to reason. That was an attempt at manipulation, and smart people don't take that bait.

The moderation team (a troika, hence voting deadlocks are impossible; although we prefer to operate by consensus) is converging on new ways to deal with posts and allegations that fly in the face of science and reason. It's new ground for us, because historically reason has been proven to prevail, but in this most recent spate of FUD posts reason, rationality, fact, and logic have been completely and utterly ineffective. It's like trying to argue with a spouse who doesn't understand that a guy can wear a skirt and still be the guy she married because she's using emotion not logic. The FUD mongers are a step more pernicious than that, insofar as that there is motive and they won't take "No." as an answer and attempt to manipulate rules and society to bend to their whims.

In the interest of full disclosure here, I've recused myself from taking any formal action on this particular matter and will leave it to Uncle Al and denimini. I'll break a tie if I need to, but refuse to be tainted in the matter. I will, however, attempt to rebut FUD and misinformation until a better (or just simpler) solution is arrived at.
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Freedomforall
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Freedomforall »

With all the talk of conspiracy theories, blah, blah , blah! I would really like to see some of the news from other sources. Carl, Moon, Sinned, and others why can we not post articles from the pro-vaccine side??
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Kirbstone »

Ah yes, Dihydrogen monoxide.......There was a small puddle on the chemists shop floor and he looked at it and said 'H2O', whereupon his customer said 'No, it's K9P.'

Btw., There are none of us front-line health workers who aren't well vaccinated, That's for sure.

Tom
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crfriend
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Re: Corona Virus

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Kirbstone wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:06 pmThere was a small puddle on the chemists shop floor and he looked at it and said 'H2O', whereupon his customer said 'No, it's K9P.'
Which is a horse of a different colour altogether -- hence Frank Zappa and "Yellow Snow"!
Btw., There are none of us front-line health workers who aren't well vaccinated, That's for sure.
Thus shutting down the conspiracy theorists, the "hesitant", and the FUD mongers.

To FFA's point, the problem is that the basic science is quite boring to the general individual and the conspiracy theory sounds so juicy and interesting. For instance we know that the SARS-CoV-2 virus jumped the "species boundary" (which happens from time to time and is a natural occurrence) but a "lab escape" sounds vastly more sexy. Likewise, the reams of statistical data that show that vaccines work -- and work well with few side effects -- are cast aside by random one-offs of, "I know somebody who {whatever} from getting the shot!" The juicy is simply more attractive than the hard data.

A fairly large contingent of my friends and acquaintances work in the health-care field (this is not entirely surprising given my background) and just about to a one are fully vaccinated. These are folks "in the know" -- much more so than the average person on the street. The only ones who are not are those who have demonstrated serious allergic reactions to the substances involved.
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Freedomforall »

crfriend wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:32 pm
Kirbstone wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:06 pmThere was a small puddle on the chemists shop floor and he looked at it and said 'H2O', whereupon his customer said 'No, it's K9P.'
Which is a horse of a different colour altogether -- hence Frank Zappa and "Yellow Snow"!
Btw., There are none of us front-line health workers who aren't well vaccinated, That's for sure.

the problem is that the basic science is quite boring to the general individual and the conspiracy theory sounds so juicy and interesting. For instance we know that the SARS-CoV-2 virus jumped the "species boundary" (which happens from time to time and is a natural occurrence) but a "lab escape" sounds vastly more sexy. Likewise, the reams of statistical data that show that vaccines work -- and work well with few side effec
I blame a lot of this on filthy television shows such as Jerry Springer etc. Shows like this gave rise to a culture that loves scandals and drama. Hence why I have not had television since the 90's.
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Faldaguy »

by Kirbstone » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:06 pm

Btw., There are none of us front-line health workers who aren't well vaccinated, That's for sure.

Tom
Tom, I'm not surprised at that where rationality reigns; but I've been shocked at how many in medical fields in the U.S. who are mostly Trump supporters, have been duped-- often by FUD or their failure to employ the science they once studied.

Many US hospitals have lost a significant percentage of their employees due to vaccine mandates for all staff. The losses are weighted on the side of the non-medical personnel, but do range across the full spectrum of hospital staff.

Some health care unions have agitated on behalf of employees who do not want to accept mandates by their employer to be vaccinated.

Some individuals have place their perceived "freedom to choose" ahead of any dictate that they must do something. It appear other health care workers are so exhausted they are past thinking or just as befuddled by all the FUD going around that they too have lost their ability to act rationally.

Some people fear shunning or worse from family and friends who are less well informed but adamant that there is some evil afoot. There are even some "Doctors", albeit few with appropriate medical expertise, that have sold their souls to the devil's pocketbook -- it seems FUD pays pretty well.

Gusto, frankly I wonder if you too have joined the above crowd for some ulterior motives?
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Re: Corona Virus

Post by Sinned »

Looking back on posts it all appears more insidious when the FUD is spread under the pretext of reasoned debate. Consider one of gusto's latest posts in the context of FUD and his other posts and you will see what I mean.

"All I tried to do is to get people interested, put on theur thinkingcap and ask themselves if they are satisfied by what is told by governments, or do they want to make their own choice in respect of being vaccinated. I'll respect anybody who has chosen after having made an assesment of what is best for him/her. I do hope for the same respect. My gutfeeling was that things didn't and don't add up. That's why I started digging and tried to share what I found hoping that others would become curious also. Thus well construed pro's and con's. Such to no avail."
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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