Current events

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dillon
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Current events

Post by dillon » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:42 am

I’m kicking a fire-ant mound here, no doubt, but if you, like me have had enough of the NRA BS about armed citizens (meaning white people) being the true defenders of liberty, The Onion nailed it.

https://www.theonion.com/thomas-jeffers ... 1836974855
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oldsalt1
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Re: Current events

Post by oldsalt1 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:37 am

Sorry I am confused what is the point that you are trying to make

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Jim
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Re: Current events

Post by Jim » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:38 am

Thanks for sharing this, Dillon. It's a sad time for sure.

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Re: Current events

Post by dillon » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:41 pm

It was very much along the line of Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal.” I won’t bother trying to explain to those unable or disinclined to appreciate it. It will make no difference to them anyway.
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oldsalt1
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Re: Current events

Post by oldsalt1 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:32 pm

I am sorry that his eminence . Is to busy to take the time to explain things to us huddled masses. But I would think that the eleitest attitude you display in your answer to my question is exactly what you are accusing the NRA of .

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Re: Current events

Post by crfriend » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:31 pm

oldsalt1 wrote:I am sorry that his eminence . Is to busy to take the time to explain things to us huddled masses.
Here's the Cliff Notes to the thing. It's a piece of satire [0] written in the early 18th Century. 'Tis a tasty little morsel, too.

One thing I am getting pretty certain of at this point is that conventional thought has abjectly failed in this time when it comes to ethical and justifiable behaviour. Increasing the violence of the response is likely making the matter worse rather than better, and worse still is that the responses can traumatise the bystanders more than the actual event. I'm willing to bet that we're actually doing more harm than good with military-grade responses to thugs and punks with warped brains.

[0] Satire is a form of humour that has been functionally obsolete since the early 1970s when real events [1] in the news started to overtake the wildest imaginations of those who would satirise events. It's based on positing situations so insane that they're only borderline believable and it's that conjunction of believable and unbelievable that makes them funny. Example, in the form of musical satire: Tom Lehrer's Poisoning Pigeons in the Park. [2]
[1] Henry Kissinger winning the Nobel Peace Prize comes to mind.
[2] If you don't understand that, see footnote [0]
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Re: Current events

Post by partlyscot » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:36 pm

I would just like to say to those who say the answer is "a good guy with a gun"

The Dayton shooter was killed by police in 30 seconds. In that time he fired 41 times, hit 14 people, and killed 9 of them. But semi auto weapons with high capacity magazines is apparently, not part of the issue according to the NRA.

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Re: Current events

Post by Fred in Skirts » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:03 pm

The type of weapon used in one of the killings was not the type that is sold to the general public it was a military weapon. These are not hard to get if you have the $$$ and lots of it, they have been stolen or brought in to this country illegally. They are fully auto-matic so they can shoot 50 to 100 rounds a minute.

Owning one of these weapons is very illegal unless you have special permits from the Government. These permits are not just handed out, you must go through a back ground check that is even more stringent than getting a top secret clearance.
The same goes for silencers.(0)

(0) Silencers or as the police call them suppressors have been illegal since before the gangsters had them during prohibition.
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partlyscot
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Re: Current events

Post by partlyscot » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:02 am

The weapon used by the Dayton shooter was purchased legally. It may have used some loopholes, it may also have been modified. It was not sold as full auto. Even if not modified, a semi auto is quite capable of being fired 41 times in 30 seconds, of course, that assumes you are firing somewhat indiscriminately. Given that he "only" managed to hit 14 people, that seems likely. The cost of the gun is about $900, the 100 round magazine about $200. 500 rounds of ammunition, about $100. For everything else, there's the NRA.

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Re: Current events

Post by r.m.anderson » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:12 am

There is something fundamentally wrong here:

When someone's 2nd Amendment rights - TRUMP - another's 1st Amendment rights of LIFE & LIBERTY !

Guns and weapons can be used to preserve that 1st Amendment - BUT - not take it away (without just cause) !
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Re: Current events

Post by Darryl » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:56 am

So. One wonders what the shooter's hit ratio was. Vox reports specifically that he struck only 14 people, with 9 dead, which would give us 14/41 or 34% hit ratio.

An article in Time says 9 dead in 30 seconds. At one shot per second, should it not have been 30 dead? With additional casualties through over-penetration?

Assuming 27 injured, 14 gunshot injuries and 13 injuries from other means (i.e. stampede).

But how many were wounded or killed as a result of aimed fire? With what is reported to be a 100-round drum magazine?

Start: 01:05:35, Stop: 01:06:07. 41 spent casings recovered from the perpetrator, 65 from police.

With a trained shooter, it could have been much worse. With some (military) guys I used to know, it WOULD have been much worse.

Data from: https://time.com/5643405/what-to-know-s ... yton-ohio/ and https://www.vox.com/2019/8/5/20755047/d ... a-gun-myth

AR15 maximum effective rate of fire: 45 rounds per minute (.75 rounds per second). A competitive shooter can reach a maximum of 3 rounds per second.

Maximum effective rate of fire is the highest rate of fire that can be maintained and still achieve target hits.

Firearm data from: https://checkyourfact.com/2018/02/24/fa ... -a-second/ and https://www.presby.edu/doc/military/FM-22-9.pdf

A trained "good guy with a gun" should be able to draw from concealment and put two rounds center-mass and one between the eyes in 2.5 seconds or a little less. Most aren't trained to that level, fewer police are.

And in my neighborhood, the police response is 5 to 15 minutes, as of 2008. In recent years you may have to wait a bit longer while they put together a 'swarm.'

And frankly, it's a human problem, not a gun problem. No guns? Edged weapons. Get rid of edged weapons? Blunt objects. Get rid of blunt objects? Multiple attackers.

Instead of putting saltpeter in the water, perhaps they should use Valium instead.

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Re: Current events

Post by dillon » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:15 am

oldsalt1 wrote:I am sorry that his eminence . Is to busy to take the time to explain things to us huddled masses. But I would think that the eleitest attitude you display in your answer to my question is exactly what you are accusing the NRA of .
There is no facet of my “elitist” attitude that resembles the NRA or it’s lackey politicians. I simply made an effort not to fan the flames here, and therefore withheld further comment.

But if you want to know what I REALLY think, keep on asking for the barrage.

BTW, since we’re all adults here, anyone is free to ignore my posts. It really won’t offend me.
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Re: Current events

Post by Ray » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:57 am

It’s a timely and poignant article. Thanks for sharing.

One day, the American nation will come to its collective senses. I’m aware - even from some distance - of a groundswell of opinion which rejects the prevailing culture. One can only hope - for ALL Americans - that things will change.

Ray

(I’ve tried to be non-inflammatory in my post)

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Re: Current events

Post by crfriend » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:11 am

Darryl wrote:A trained "good guy with a gun" should be able to draw from concealment and put two rounds center-mass and one between the eyes in 2.5 seconds or a little less. Most aren't trained to that level, fewer police are.
You're forgetting the time it takes to notice that something is amiss and that a cogent response is required. Also, "two rounds center-mass" is useless if the target is armoured. Worse are the nagging questions for the "good guy": "Am I shooting at the correct target?" and "What happens if/when I miss?"
Darryl wrote:And frankly, it's a human problem, not a gun problem. No guns? Edged weapons. Get rid of edged weapons? Blunt objects. Get rid of blunt objects? Multiple attackers.
This is where my mind is going.

Given the level of disenfranchisement in society, the levels of general desperation, isolation, and detachment that's common amongst individuals today it's not terribly surprising that things like this have become commonplace. Certainly that the place is seemingly awash in guns doesn't help the situation, but guns are not at the root of the issue, it's the fundamentally broken minds of the individuals who commit these atrocities that is: fix the societal problems that generate these sorts of thought patterns and the issue will go away on its own.

We've created this problem with the way that we've taken society, and only we can fix it. Politicians won't, police can't, and the powerful have no interest in fixing it. Somehow the general population needs to get things back to a normal, sane, state.
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Re: Current events

Post by Jim » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:44 am

Darryl wrote:
And frankly, it's a human problem, not a gun problem. No guns? Edged weapons. Get rid of edged weapons? Blunt objects. Get rid of blunt objects? Multiple attackers.
The guns make the casualty rate much higher. Canada has a human problem also, but not the mass killings because of stricter gun control.

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