Return of anti-crossdressing laws

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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby moonshadow » Fri May 17, 2019 11:18 am

oldsalt1 wrote:Answer this. Is it easier to be transgender now than it was 20, 30 years ago the same thing with those in the LGBTQ . This is because of the influence of the 'X generation and millennials.


For now. And the evangelical lobby has rallied against it the whole time.

I know criticizing Trump sets you off, so I'll give him credit for something.... he's probably the first politician in history to keep his promises...

He promised to hand this nation over to the far religious right (Christian extremists) and f--- everyone else....

... and that's just what he did.

Because of him and who he hand picked to sit on the highest court, if you ever decide to leave Long Island and head south or west, you better pack some trousers.

oldsalt1 wrote:As these generations mature they will only gain more power as the old guard simply die off. . If you need proof just look at the freshman US congressional members. Eventually these are the people who will gain power.


It doesn't matter if we have progressive administrations and congresses for the next 30 years. This court will overrule everything they try to do to fix what Trump did.

We're f---ed....
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby oldsalt1 » Fri May 17, 2019 11:31 am

moonshadow wrote:
oldsalt1 wrote:Answer this. Is it easier to be transgender now than it was 20, 30 years ago the same thing with those in the LGBTQ . This is because of the influence of the 'X generation and millennials.

For now. And the evangelical lobby has rallied against it the whole time.

That's true but who is winning Even The Methodist church is about to split. because of differences on these ideas.
I know criticizing Trump sets you off,

I don't have a problem with disagreeing and criticizing Trump' policies . Its when you can't do it without disparaging comments that sets me off.
Last edited by crfriend on Fri May 17, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby crfriend » Fri May 17, 2019 1:03 pm

oldsalt1 wrote:Even The Methodist church is about to split. because of differences on these ideas.

That's going to be interesting to watch, mainly to see where the fracture lines break. I'm guessing that the reactionary types are largely located in the Southern/Midwestern tier and the moderates in the Northeast and Western tiers. It may point up some interesting ideological points as well.

Things are even rocky for the Episcopalian Church thanks, mostly, to African reactionaries. I think for some things, a "Throw them out!" is a valid response. (In this I write of a deliberate vote to eject the troublemakers rather than wait quietly for them to stir up trouble internally.)

It's the old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby Grok » Fri May 17, 2019 3:27 pm

moonshadow wrote:Why do all the free states have to be in areas with hard winters?

Is it too much to ask to have a warm free state?

Seattle has a climate that is generally moderate. (though we did have snow storms this February). Much of the year tends to be cool to chilly, overcast, drizzly-and some people have trouble adjusting to that.

The high COL sucks, as does the traffic.

However, Seattle is one of the most socially liberal cities in the country.
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby Grok » Fri May 17, 2019 3:41 pm

oldsalt1 wrote:
As these generations mature they will only gain more power as the old guard simply die off. .
A mechanism of social change which, I believe, will favor MIS in the long run. ( But not necessarily other changes, such as LGBTQ).

History hints that a different clothing style can become part of the culture-if the style persists over a generational time scale. Actually, I have seen this during my lifetime, with females shifting mainly to twin-tubes.
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby moonshadow » Fri May 17, 2019 4:22 pm

oldsalt1 wrote:That's true but who is winning Even The Methodist church is about to split. because of differences on these ideas.


Well, those are I internal church matters that they can work out. I don't have any problem with what a church decides with regards to how it handles issues (like homosexual marriage). My issue arises when said church seeks to press its positions onto the whole populace.

I don't even have an issue with private businesses or other entities who refuse to serve people they have moral objections to (even though I may disagree with their positions). If anything, most people in private businesses seem kind to me when I'm wearing skirts and dresses. Very rarely do I receive "bad vibes".

My problem is when our "Supreme Court" in all its divine wisdom decides that people employed (or elected (Kim Davis)) in government establishments can refuse service to those they morally object to. They don't mind taking our taxes, but we'd better present ourselves in a "good wholesome Christian manner" when we remit those payments. At least with a private business I can take my business elsewhere.... no so with the government.

How's it going to go down when you're turned away by a poll worker? God knows I got some ugly gleers when I showed up to vote in the last congressional race (in a skirt).

Couple that with who knows how many local municipalities passing ordinances that ban the wearing of clothing that does not match one's sex, similar to how things were 70 plus years ago.

And the court will uphold it... because equal protection doesn't apply to sex. Women can choose, men can not. Unless, as was pointed out you were knocked up by rape then you're S.O.L.

Make America Great Again....? Indeed.... if you're evangelical. For everyone else.... the ideology of the middle east just expanded... we simply have a different religion in power.

I'm not trying to attack Christian's, in fact I think this is their "anti-Christ" at work. It's interesting that old timey preachers used to warn about wolves in sheeps clothing during the end times. They said the anti-Christ will charm believers into following him.

When I started to hear many people around my region claim that Trump was sent directly from heaven, a gift of God so to speak, I recalled what those old preachers used to preach about... those same preachers today are drinking Trumps kool-aid.

This is some scary sh!t .

Its not just the removal of civil liberties for non-Christians... these people literally think that Trump is the messiah... Yes you read that correctly. Many in that 39% believe that Trump represents the second coming. I have actually heard locals say "praise God for Trump, he who must be delivered from heaven to save this country".

I wish I could say I am exaggerating.

Grok wrote:Seattle has a climate that is generally moderate. (though we did have snow storms this February). Much of the year tends to be cool to chilly, overcast, drizzly-and some people have trouble adjusting to that.


These court rulings will span the entire nation. No corner is safe since it will be federal. While your municipalities may not enact certain laws, the federal government is about to rule that the rights of individual evangelical Christian's to deny service to anyone they take issue with trump's all other laws and rulings.

So hypothetically if you decide you want to start a store for men's skirts and whoever's issues your business licenses decides that you're in violation of his or her religious beliefs... that's too bad for you.

And that person can't be reprimanded or forced to issue the license under "religious freedom".

This type of thing is already playing out in Richlands Virginia. There is a new age store that is being banned from tarot readings simply due to the strong objections of local churches. The ACLU has been working with the owners. They are likely to win... however once the license comes up for renewal, once "religious freedom" is cemented as federal law, all the town clerk has to do is cite that issuing a license for a Wiccan store violates her religious beliefs. The courts must uphold it.

Dark ages?....

Its coming....
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby moonshadow » Fri May 17, 2019 4:47 pm

You know.... none of this is Trumps fault. Trump is just being Trump.

No, we have Hillary Clinton to thank for all of this. I know SO MANY people who voted for Trump just because they loathed the idea of having Hillary for president. When she rigged that nomination, she handed the office to Trump.

Lest we forget Trump and the Clinton's were friends back in the day.

To this day I still see "Bernie" stickers all over the place... People wanted change... we got Trump.

Yay us.... :roll:
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Bluexit

Postby Grok » Fri May 17, 2019 5:27 pm

Regarding domestic issues...I have seen our present political divisiveness (the most divisive since the 1860s) described as an "internal Cold War" or a "cold civil war".


https://newrepublic.com/article/140948/ ... ed-america
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Re: Bluexit

Postby crfriend » Fri May 17, 2019 6:01 pm

Grok wrote:Regarding domestic issues...I have seen our present political divisiveness (the most divisive since the 1860s) described as an "internal Cold War" or a "cold civil war".

What's conveniently overlooked is that divisiveness is deliberate and stoked every waking moment of every day by both "sides". The takeaway from that is that there is, in fact, one "side" to this, and that's the oligarchy which doesn't want to be brought down. So it turns the citizens against each other to cover its tracks.
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby Dust » Fri May 17, 2019 6:29 pm

Not all the arguments made against abortion and homosexual marriage are religious. Some are secular and based on science and reason.

The abortion thing comes down, not to any women's rights, privacy, or choice thing, but to whether the state recognizes the unborn child as having rights as a person. Science tells us that they are human and genetically distinct from the mother. Genetically distinct human beings, it is being argued, are people who should have rights, the most fundamental being the right to life. The Alabama law focused on that. That's why there is no exception for rape. The child's rights can't depend on the circumstances of their conception.

If the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, it will be on personhood grounds, not on anything to do with sex or religion. I read that somewhere in one of these abortion decisions, they wrote that if the legislature says unborn babies are people, that abortion could be outlawed. So Alabama's legislature just said they are people.
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby moonshadow » Fri May 17, 2019 7:10 pm

Well, abortion is another matter all together. My position on abortion is already explained in other threads.

But basically this is what happens whenever any subject other than abortion is brought up... it always gravitates to abortion. The abortion issue is destroying this nation in more ways than one. If you lean progressive then you are expected to be pro-choice, if you lean conservative then you're expected to be pro-life.

Abortion, for the most part, has nothing to do with the health care crisis, LGBT issues, military spending and conquest, labor laws, infrastructure, crossdressing, men wearing skirts, etc. Abortion is one issue in a very long line of other issues. Yes, there is some overlap, but it seems like people the nation over can't discuss anything until we resolve the abortion issue.

And the abortion issue involves mainly women.... and children.... the two biggest hot button topics.

I'm not calling you out Dust, please understand, but your post ironically makes my point. Such as it is on virtually every news feed, every political discussion... all roads lead to abortion.

Why? Because it's essentially an unsolvable debate. The line of when its acceptable to have an abortion or not will never be decided. What better issue to string up the whole damned political world. What better issue to keep the peasants occupied while the masters of this world secretly plan our demise and strip us our rights.

We want a living wage...

BUT ABORTION....

We want affordable health care...

BUT ABORTION....

We don't want to be told how to dress...

BUT ABORTION....

Etc etc...
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby crfriend » Fri May 17, 2019 10:58 pm

moonshadow wrote:The abortion issue is destroying this nation in more ways than one. If you lean progressive then you are expected to be pro-choice, if you lean conservative then you're expected to be pro-life.

The flip side of this debate also touches very on end-of-life issues, and those can be even more profound than those that swirl around "unborn children" that are little more than polyps in the early stages of gestation. The ones I speak of are the cogent, cognisant, feeling individuals who are at the end of their life and desire to die with at least a shred of dignity to them. The "right-to-lifers" condemn those souls to a hell of an existence at the ends of their life as surely as they damn the mother forced to carry an infant to term that was thrust on her in an act of unspeakable violence -- not to mention the fact that they simultaneously damn the child to entirely likely a cold cruel "life" not just in childhood but also as an adult.

BTDT with my father. It was the second most dehumanising situation I have ever been exposed to, and it was utterly disgusting and revolting -- and should be to anyone who is a kind, caring human being.
Abortion, for the most part, has nothing to do with the health care crisis, LGBT issues, military spending and conquest, labor laws, infrastructure, crossdressing, men wearing skirts, etc.

It's primarily a matter of dominance and dominion. It's about power, pure and simple. And, as much as I hate to admit the thought, I can't help but wonder if Alabama's new law is at least partially related to the reactionaries' response to #metoo. At a very basic, a visceral, level it might be pay-back for threatening their little world. Why, does one suppose, that rape is such a potent weapon in warfare?

Put bluntly, at an ethical level, sometimes death is preferable to "life" -- and almost always to "existence". We also have a major problem with the "Western Medicine" approach that equates death with failure. So, this is more complex an issue than first meets the eye. The medical field is showing signs of changing its ways, but the fundamentalist "believers" never will.
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby moonshadow » Sat May 18, 2019 3:16 am

crfriend wrote:It's primarily a matter of dominance and dominion. It's about power, pure and simple. And, as much as I hate to admit the thought, I can't help but wonder if Alabama's new law is at least partially related to the reactionaries' response to #metoo. At a very basic, a visceral, level it might be pay-back for threatening their little world. Why, does one suppose, that rape is such a potent weapon in warfare?


I must admit, I was vexed as to how this discussion morphed into an abortion discussion, until I googled the Alabama thing today and it became clear, I posted this thread about the time that Alabama thing apparently hit so I guess that's what everyone thought I was referring to.

Heh... goes to show I don't come out from under my rock often.

Actually, the thread was prompted from a three week old article I found where the supreme court will be hearing the "equality" case once in for all early next year. This will be the bit of federal judgement that will undoubtedly seal the deal for the far religious right to have a license to be a contrary, stick in the mud ass hole when it comes to having to breathe the same sinful air that the eternally damned breathe. Oh, and just wait until they allow churches to funnel tax deductible church contributions to political campaigns!

In other words.. this thread is just an old news "Moon Shadow rant"... nothing more.

The flip side of this debate also touches very on end-of-life issues, and those can be even more profound than those that swirl around "unborn children" that are little more than polyps in the early stages of gestation. The ones I speak of are the cogent, cognisant, feeling individuals who are at the end of their life and desire to die with at least a shred of dignity to them. The "right-to-lifers" condemn those souls to a hell of an existence at the ends of their life as surely as they damn the mother forced to carry an infant to term that was thrust on her in an act of unspeakable violence -- not to mention the fact that they simultaneously damn the child to entirely likely a cold cruel "life" not just in childhood but also as an adult.


After watching my step father die of cancer, yes it is a very cruel way to allow someone to die. I don't understand, it's perfectly acceptable to put an animal down to end it's suffering, but not a human...

... I guess that's just how they run up a hospital bill.

By the way... shout out to all those who participated in this thread... nobody started slinging mud and we covered some very controversial ground! I am impressed!
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby crfriend » Sat May 18, 2019 12:13 pm

moonshadow wrote:Actually, the thread was prompted from a three week old article I found where the supreme court will be hearing the "equality" case once in for all early next year. This will be the bit of federal judgement that will undoubtedly seal the deal for the far religious right to have a license to be a contrary, stick in the mud ass hole when it comes to having to breathe the same sinful air that the eternally damned breathe. Oh, and just wait until they allow churches to funnel tax deductible church contributions to political campaigns!

I was aware of that, but the continual churn of the "News Cycle" produces a very powerful "recency effect" that none of us are immune to. I'm also dreading the eventual ruling, for they almost certainly will get it wrong. The correct (can't use "right" here) solution would be to completely level the playing field for all citizens and flatly state that, "Discrimination of any kind on any grounds against anyone is hereby illegal." That'd cause a universal uproar, of course, so we're likely going to retain the current patchwork of special privileges and super-classes, possibly with some extra codification or perhaps another new super-class or two. Who knows, the Supreme Court is pretty arbitrary and random at this point as it's full of ideologs who are beholden to their beliefs and their paymasters.
After watching my step father die of cancer, yes it is a very cruel way to allow someone to die. I don't understand, it's perfectly acceptable to put an animal down to end it's suffering, but not a human...

Allowing it is inhumane enough -- but mandating it is entirely and wholly a damnable thing to do. The law mandates extending suffering until the last moment (or until the money is gone). While her father was dying a long slow death from multiple myeloma my late ex- once angrily commented to me, "Our cats get better end of life care than this!" -- and she was right. When my own father was slowly and painfully dying from a stroke he'd had pretty much begged me to end it -- and I had to tell him the heartbreaking truth that I could, and would, if he'd consign me to a life in prison for murder in the first degree as that's how the 17th-century court system would have seen it (he backed down with tears in his eyes).
By the way... shout out to all those who participated in this thread... nobody started slinging mud and we covered some very controversial ground! I am impressed!

Indeed. This is how things can be handled. Some very knotty philosophical, ethical, and, yes, political issues got touched upon -- and everybody retained their composure. :thumleft:
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Re: Return of anti-crossdressing laws

Postby moonshadow » Sat May 18, 2019 2:41 pm

crfriend wrote:
moonshadow wrote: Actually, the thread was prompted from a three week old article I found where the supreme court will be hearing the "equality" case once in for all early next year. This will be the bit of federal judgement that will undoubtedly seal the deal for the far religious right to have a license to be a contrary, stick in the mud ass hole when it comes to having to breathe the same sinful air that the eternally damned breathe. Oh, and just wait until they allow churches to funnel tax deductible church contributions to political campaigns!



I was aware of that, but the continual churn of the "News Cycle" produces a very powerful "recency effect" that none of us are immune to. I'm also dreading the eventual ruling, for they almost certainly will get it wrong. The correct (can't use "right" here) solution would be to completely level the playing field for all citizens and flatly state that, "Discrimination of any kind on any grounds against anyone is hereby illegal." That'd cause a universal uproar, of course, so we're likely going to retain the current patchwork of special privileges and super-classes, possibly with some extra codification or perhaps another new super-class or two. Who knows, the Supreme Court is pretty arbitrary and random at this point as it's full of ideologs who are beholden to their beliefs and their paymasters.


You're most likely correct on your prediction, and I believe what I dread most of all is the obnoxious gloating when the far right wins another one. I brace myself for the "halo effect" of certain people who will abuse the new ruling and cite "religious freedom" to send people like us, or just anyone they take issue with on their way when many of them probably don't even belong to a church and only loosely call themselves "Christian", rather are just prejudiced and want to be an ass hole to people that bother them. Again, this is not such a big issue in business, most small businesses have treated me well as have those in larger ones, (also a conservative supreme court is likely to side with the business rather than it's employee(s), thus if a business says "all are welcome here", then employees will have to do their job or find another one) but my concern is when it lands on public employees when you are trying to conduct mandatory business with the government. Since the head of the government is deeply evangelical (at least in title), then they (the government) will certainly allow it's employees to deny service to anyone the employee has a problem with.

It's happening in Richlands Virginia with the New Age store (denying a fortune telling license because it offends local churches), such stories are common, especially across the U.S. south when it comes to non-Christians practicing their faith. It's practically illegal to be Muslim around here. Blue islands like the ones you and OldSalt live on will not feel it as hard as us in the south will. But getting back to the store in Richlands, if the town can stall the case another year, they might actually win by citing "religious freedom" on behalf of the town clerk who issues the licenses. The best part is, (I think) the town clerk is hired by the council, NOT elected, so he/she can't even be voted out!

But lets just back up and look at the big picture... this ruling will allow Christians to play God... plain and simple. It allows them to be the judge of everyone and decide for themselves what is "right" and what is "wrong". Get ready....

And to touch on abortion lightly, we have the abortion issue to thank for all of this. And that's why I loathe the topic and I STRONGLY suspect that BOTH sides are keeping that fire going intentionally to work on the bigger agenda behind the scenes (that being the removal of all other rights). Politicians don't give a DAMN about life or fetuses, or what have you. Like I said before, it's a very hot button topic that strikes at the core of religious values vs a woman's right over her body. The two will always be in perpetual conflict, the powers that be know that, and that's why it's all you see on bill boards and bumper stickers...

It's BULLSH!T!

GMO's, cigarettes, war, preventable disease (upon those without health care coverage), diet, and a whole host of other, perfectly legal things and practices cause more deaths than abortions, yet all are perfectly legal! Restaurants are required by law to put a silly "calorie count" next to every single menu item, but nobody has to label genetically modified foods... figure that one out! I get tickled when I see this popular sticker on people's car "PRO GOD - PRO GUN - PRO LIFE" Each three are in conflict with the other two. Guns have one purpose.. to kill, to take away life, be it an attacker, an animal, or what have you. I'm not saying guns are evil and bad (I myself support the 2nd), but I'm simply saying that the job of a gun is to take life. As for using a gun for protection, well if one truly had faith in "God", then you wouldn't need a gun. I ask them, "did the Israelites need firearms to escape Egypt?" No, they only had their faith in "God" to provide, the story goes that that faith also provided them with food among other necessities. God is also in conflict with life. "God" has caused more death than all the other causes combined! And now I'm talking about mortal life not spiritual... but then again... when it comes to abortion, we are also talking about MORTAL life.

What did I said all this was??... (scroll back up) (bullsh.....)

Anyway, none of it matters because.... ABORTION. That's all everyone talks about. Abortion got Trump elected, and thus landed us an evangelical high court. Most people even around here support many progressive policies, social health care, government assistance, anti-war, public education, infrastructure, the list goes on and on, but these deeply religious people just can't in good conscience vote for a politician that openly supports what they perceive to be "murdering babies".

Many don't realize that southwestern Virginia used to be fiercely democrat back 30 plus years ago. These days, you can't even get a democrat to bother running in a local election. What changed? Simply put, the line upon which side you fell on came down to one topic, abortion. If you were pro-life, you are a republican, if you are pro-choice, you are a democrat.

What a shame... and that's why I'll be glad when it's finally outright banned so maybe... just maybe.. we can move on. Besides, while they may be illegal, they will never be stopped, unless they also ban wire hangers. Everyone ought to know by now that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it ceases... it just moves underground.
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