Notre dame paris

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Notre dame paris

Postby Gusto10 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:09 pm

On fire, how grave, how horrid
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby beachlion » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:16 pm

Indeed. When I saw the video, I missed a few heart beats. It is such a focal point of the French culture.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby Fred in Skirts » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:30 pm

Having been away from the teli for the past few days what is happening in Paris is this the result of accident or terrorism? :( :(
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby Sinned » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:17 pm

Just caught this on MSN and there's no indication that terrorist activity was the cause that I could see. Very sad as N.D. was very much a French icon and a beautiful building. Utterly irreplaceable. York Minster had a similar fire in 1984 when the roof caught fire it was thought by a lightning bolt. The roof was destroyed and many items of art and historic value. The building was otherwise intact and the roof was rebuilt from photographs. It took years to do and the cleaning up oi Medieval glass continues today. I do hope that if the structure is saved that they can rebuild what was destroyed. Very sad. I hope that they manage to find Quasimodo a new home. :(
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby crfriend » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:41 pm

Sinned wrote:I do hope that if the structure is saved that they can rebuild what was destroyed. Very sad. I hope that they manage to find Quasimodo a new home. :(

I caught this at my local on the way home this afternoon and teared up pretty quickly when I saw the imagery -- even before I could read the captions (the building is instantly recognisable from almost any angle). My hope is that the masonry part of the structure will survive and that the wooden parts can be rebuilt -- as Sinned mentioned was done for the Yorkminster Cathedral.

There is no mention of "terrorism" or nefarious intent at the moment; speculation is running to something related to a restoration project that was in the works at the time. Whatever the cause, it's a tragedy in the highest degree, not just because of the religious value, but also the loss of human history and what amounts to a temple of human ingenuity and engineering prowess. The structure was 850 years old -- there's nothing in the New World to compare to that.

Here's hoping -- possibly against hope -- that Notre Dame de Paris can rise, phoenix-like, again from the ashes and the tears.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby beachlion » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:09 pm

The damage is to the wooden roofstructure and most of the interior. A lot of relics and other artwork are saved. The treasury is not touched. As an atheïst, I see the Notre Dame as a piece of art but I feel the pain of the believers. A spritual spot is torched.

On the videos you could see extensive scaffolding over the roof so an accident or a screw up of the workers may be the cause of the blaze. If that is the case, I think somebody will never again celebrate Easter with the same mindset as last year.

It sounds like an international collection for the rebuild has already been started. That sounds positive. I wonder how much of the world famous organ has been spared. With 32' pipes it is one of the largest organs of Europe.
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Notre Dame

Postby Kirbstone » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 am

An appalling event and the true scale of the horror is evident from the aerial view taken at the height of the blaze. We visited ND on a week's visit to Paris only 18 months ago and as we entered there had been a wedding there and the massive organ was in full song. The acoustic in such a vast gothic cathedral is such that it is hard to actually locate the organ and the source of the wonderful sound.
Taking heart from the truly amazing total reconstruction of the Marienkirke in Dresden, where the stones had also collapsed I have no doubt that ND will be beautifully restored and with modern building speeds I hope the live to see it.

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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby dillon » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 am

Been watching the video on CNN. It’s terrible, but almost amazing that it survived Europe’s wars for centuries. At some time, all distances in France were measured from the Norte Dame.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby moonshadow » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:06 am

dillon wrote: It’s terrible, but almost amazing that it survived Europe’s wars for centuries.


Indeed... to survive so much and be taken down by an arc in a J box... [0] or a welders accident...

But if was an act of arson or terrorism... I say it might be about time to bring someone to justice "French Revolution" style... God I hope it's not that...

[0] Let us not underestimate the the effects of modern technology in a nearly thousand year old structure filled with wood framing. I've seen my share of contactors and terminal blocks melt down, the only thing saving the restaurant from going up in flames was the fact it was all contained in a stainless box. I'm not sure what the voltage is in France, but I would imagine there is at least 480 in that structure... that puts off one hell of an arc when she dead shorts....
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby beachlion » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:48 am

@Moonshadow, the grid is 230V single phase and 400V triple phase.

For use in houses it is 230V/50Hz. For heavy workshop equipment they use 400V/50Hz over three wires.

In general European plugs and switch gear are quite robust, especially for the 400V equipment.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby Gusto10 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:44 am

Without, like everybody else, any knowledge as to the cause, if roofers were active and used torches, during the day it's mandatory that they stay till an hour after finishing the work so if a fire might have started under the new roofing. Maybe such was the case and wasn't the rule abided. Even though the wall are still standing there is the risk of collapse due to the heat which might have altered the strength and/or the lack of the weight of the roof. Time will tell.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby denimini » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:04 pm

A terrible loss to the world. No amount of restoration will be able to replace the wonder of looking at the original fabric.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby Sinned » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:11 pm

Apparently the stone skeleton is intact so rebuilding is a possibility. It was pointed out that replacing the roof timbers is going to be one hell of a task. Have you seen the length of them in one continuous span from eave to apex? The large glass windows look to have suffered as I recall seeing flames coming through one of the large circular ones. To lose so much Mediaeval glass .... In the York Minster they are still restoring the large circular glass panels and it's been, what, 25 years since the fire. We were lucky as the glasswork was affected by the heat, but not in the way of the flames, with lots of crazing but was still intact and the renovation work has enclosed the cleaned and restored original glass in a sandwich of modern glass. I hope that there were plenty of pictures of the roof structure and interior to ad in the reconstruction. That was one aspect that aided the Minster restoration. As I recall the GP contributed a lot of photos. The replacement roof structure is not an exact replica as the details on some of the bosses was lost but there was a competition to design new ones and these are now part of the roof.

Needless to say, some of us here will not live to see its completion.
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby Fred in Skirts » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:42 pm

The amount of medieval art works and furnishings lost is beyond measure. While I have never been out of the US I have seen many beautiful photos of it. It was one of the places I have always wanted to visit but have never had the money for the travel. I was watching the Fox net work coverage and suddenly realized that I was crying just looking at the loss and the people affected by this was overwhelming.

While I am not of the faith I do know what the relics mean to those who are and the loss of them is heart breaking to them. A local priest went to see ND about 3 years ago and when he came back the church held a meeting open to the public to show the pictures he took and to hear him speak. It was magnificent!

There is a lot of funds being started to help pay for restoration of it. But I wonder just how much of the monies will end up doing that and not in the hands of crooks as happen so often.

:(
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Re: Notre dame paris

Postby crfriend » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:47 pm

Sinned wrote:Apparently the stone skeleton is intact so rebuilding is a possibility. It was pointed out that replacing the roof timbers is going to be one hell of a task. Have you seen the length of them in one continuous span from eave to apex?

It's worse than that. Apparently there are no trees old enough and large enough in all of France to harvest for replacement timber. This is the same problem that bedevils folks who restore large old sailing vessels. Something as large as replacing a cathedral roof is mind-boggling.
The large glass windows look to have suffered as I recall seeing flames coming through one of the large circular ones.

I believe that was the uppermost window, and from older interior pictures I've seen those lit the "attic" area not the nave. Apparently the big rose windows are intact, or at least seem to be at the moment. The uppermost one, although ornate looks to have been plain clear glass.

Hopefully the stonework is unscathed by the heat. The next step is to build an umbrella over the area to keep the rain out, then restoration work can begin in earnest. The big question is whether they'll use traditional methods (e.g. timber) or more modern (and lighter) techniques to reduce the overall load on the masonry. The tall spire in the center was a 19th Century modification, apparently done under some controversy. (I'd thought it original, but have been shown wrong.)
Needless to say, some of us here will not live to see its completion.

The folks who started building it originally weren't around to see it completed. These things take time.
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