Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby crfriend » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:42 am

dillon wrote:I think a “none of the above” ballot option would make sense...if we didn’t have Primary elections.

Even with primary elections, which don't operate under standard rules, a "none of the above" could serve as a strong brake on insane primary decisions as has happened in the past several "elections". In the most resent one, if we had such a system in place, and if voter turnout was high enough, then the number of blanks cast on the high-profile slots would entirely likely have resulted in a re-vote with new candidates. In such a system, the "protest vote" would be to show up at the polling place -- as one is supposed to -- and blank the boxes for the office in contest. This is the "none acceptable" vote -- i.e. I cannot, with a clear conscience, vote for any of these candidates.

The current machinery depends heavily on the primary system. Perhaps eliminating that would be a step in the right direction. Or at least make the decision-making process in the primary system(s) transparent enough so the electorate actually gets a chance to see how the thing is run. (This alone might make third parties more viable when folks see precisely how corrupt the inner party working are.) In any event, there needs to be a "no acceptable candidate" option on the ballot that has actual teeth to it. This could be a separate box to tick, or, as I propose, no ticks anywhere means "no acceptable candidate".

As far as Citizens United (what a glorious bit of spin that is!) goes, that's about the worst thing that's come down the 'pike in decades. However, it was inevitable given the current operation of the system. To crib somebody else's line, "I'll believe corporations are individuals when Texas executes one." (And I actually use that term for certain corporations whose behaviour is so egregious that it's needed, e.g. Wells Fargo, Enron, AIG, &c.) That particular pox on the political landscape needs to be expunged, but perhaps I give too little credence to the average voter who may have the wherewithal and a sensitive BS detector to simply blank the candidates that reek of too much money. Of course that's not going to happen in the current system.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10232
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby crfriend » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:15 am

moonshadow wrote:I might consider myself a pretty rational and intelligent person, but even the most basic political discussions have a way of humbling me to the point where I often don't even feel fit to cast a vote, much less formulate an opinion on anything. It seems all the answers are wrong!

The answer is easy. Acquire "news" from as many sources as possible, with some preferably coming from outside the US. Collate all this noise in and take the average of it, depending on the leaning of the bias of the various sources. Remember that all of them are lying, insofar as they're pushing their own agenda. Weight everything, then take the mean, and you may be close to fact. (This tactic has its background in detailed intelligence-gathering at the state level and in time-honoured. Even your own country lies when things really matter.) Then, based on the average of the intelligence gained, look at what's in front of you dispassionately, form a rational opinion, and then act on that opinion. Chat about your opinion and how you arrived at it with others as well, but do so civilly, and you may gain insight on things that you might have missed. That's an informed opinion. Parroting what one heard on Fox "News" or PBS "News" isn't an informed opinion.
There is so much chatter going on these days, with the struggle just to survive, how does the common Joe find the time to contemplate solving the world's problems much less actually attempting it?

The easiest way is to back off a notch and try to mentally remove yourself from the morass and look at it from a safe distance. Not only will this allow you to be more objective, it'll also dull the inevitable pain you're going to feel from realising that you've been being lied to for years. It's vastly easier to look at what's going on today as a collection of "black boxes" this insides of which you cannot see, but which you can observe how they behave when presented with certain inputs (stimuli). With enough observations of stimulus/response, one can reach an intelligent and very accurate approximation of what's actually inside without either opening the box or listening to the overt noise blasted from inside the box.

I had a wonderful conversation with my elder aunt this afternoon on this very matter. She's so upset about the current state of things that she's almost apoplectic. My explanations on my observations didn't help matters either, but I counselled her that I'm looking in on this thing as a grand experiment in sociology and I'm trying very hard to look aside from the fact that I -- like you -- am in the middle of it, That gives me peace of mind. (Bless her heart, but she's solidly NPR and can't see the forest for the trees. I still love her, but the NPR bent grates -- and grates precisely as badly as Fox, I'll add. This is not her fault. She's been sucked into it by the modern media.)
When everything is billed as "fake news" by 50% of the populous who do people like myself trust? Trust my own gut?

In the real world, it's all fake news. Unless you were there to witness it first-hand, it's getting passed though a filter, and that filter may be adding, deleting, enhancing, attenuating, or skewing things in ways you cannot necessarily know. Get multiple sources. Always multiple sources. Back when shortwave radio was still useful, for important stuff, I'd turn to my old standbys, the BBC World Service, the Australian Broadcasting Service, assorted local and national newspapers, Radio Havana, whatever other European stations I could receive that day, and even Pravda. Then I'd boil all of that down, take an average of it, and more often than not be spot on the money about what really happened and why. Now, "why" can be hard -- and it usually requires deep context, and that takes time to acquire. So start acquiring it.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10232
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby moonshadow » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:10 am

crfriend wrote: Chat about your opinion and how you arrived at it with others as well, but do so civilly, and you may gain insight on things that you might have missed. That's an informed opinion. Parroting what one heard on Fox "News" or PBS "News" isn't an informed opinion.


That's the issue. Virtually everyone I interact with is glued to one or the other. There are no more discussions, only "preaching".

Normally when I share my opinions with family and friends, if they are not in agreement, they literally just bypass what I said (ignore it) and move along with the point they were driving at.

I have belted out plenty of thoughts on different matters only to have the person I'm talking with just go right back to their partisan script... Not even so much as an acknowledgement. My father is really bad for this.

If I protest being ignored too loudly I wind up just being that guy that never gets invited anywhere, and people avoid.

So I've concluded most everybody's mind is made up... and we're doomed. I enjoy most of the discussion on this site. I learn a lot.

I keep in touch with about 8 people in meat space. 7 of them are addicted to fox news, the other one is an NPR guy. One of the seven is starting to favor "one America network" (a cable news station that makes fox look liberal by comparison)

None are interested in discussing different views.

Nobody gives a damn about anyone's opinions unless they are already birds of a feather. It's a waste of time to even discuss it anymore. It's so tiresome.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."
-Alejandro Jodorowsky
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3990
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby geron » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:13 am

Ray wrote:I didn’t see this, being in the UK. However, I had to laugh at the alleged national emergency and the building of a big wall...

Indeed there's no wall in the UK -- yet. But for UK viewers, I warmly recommend Soft Border Patrol, a hilarious mockumentary produced by BBC Northern Ireland. It hasn't been shown in other UK regions, probably because it's a little too subversive, but it's just begun a second series. Those in the UK who have satellite TV can find it late on Friday evenings on BBC One NI and BBC One NI HD, or late on Sunday evenings on BBC Two NI. It introduced me to the concept of a Schrödinger's border, which is both there and not there. Genius :-)
geron
Active Member
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:31 pm
Location: Surrey

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby r.m.anderson » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:16 am

I will throw this out to get my flesh torn to pieces and bits:

What about -1- year before the general election have a RANK CHOICE VOTE of eligible interested candidates for the office.
Whittle is down to the top three and vote away in a final election or just simply use the RCV as the method of election.

Retire the Electoral College - this was manifested during a time of Revolution - YES we are still revolting against the
government and the rich few who govern us.

AND MAKE THE FEDERAL ELECTION DAY A "PAID" HOLIDAY
No need to seek time off worry about getting to and from work afterward

AND consider voting from home over a encrypted secure network - Russkies not invited and
Absentee Ballots not delayed altered forged by sources on the streets !

Campaign funding MUST be matched with equal qualified amounts paid to charity or humanitarian causes.
If you are going to buy your way into office than it will be a shared event.

There are so many ways to increase the voting turn-out and have the will of the MAJORITY POPULAR people heard.
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
User avatar
r.m.anderson
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1790
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:25 pm
Location: Bloomington MN

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby Jim » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:08 pm

r.m.anderson wrote:I will throw this out to get my flesh torn to pieces and bits:

What about -1- year before the general election have a RANK CHOICE VOTE of eligible interested candidates for the office.

I, too, suspect that ranked choice voting might be a good alternative. I'm not clear what is the best way to prevent those with the most money from having the most influence; maybe some kind of public financing but that would be tricky avoiding abuse.
User avatar
Jim
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:39 am

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby dillon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:15 pm

dillon wrote:
Ray wrote:I didn’t see this, being in the UK. However, I had to laugh at the alleged national emergency and the building of a big wall to stop drug trafficking. The humour was driven by the fact that the overwhelming majority of inbound drugs come through recognised entry points into the USA and not over the border from Mexico.

We - you - live in interesting times...


Luckily we do have courts with the ability to sort out intent, and it’s pretty clear that the border data does not support “Agent Orange’s” contention. Illegal crossings have been falling since 2008 and are presently at a fifty-year low. And AO didn’t declare an emergency for the two years he had both houses of Congress in his party. See, the Republicans wouldn’t fund that lame wall either. It was a silly campaign promise that only a liar would make and only a fool would believe.

And...if the partisan Supreme Court upholds “Twitler’s” scheme, then it establishes a precedent for the use of the Emergency Powers Act of 1976. So when the Democrats have the White House in 2021, we can declare a “national emergency” to address climate change or school shootings, and bypass GOP objections. What goes around, comes around...


The situation is getting more interesting now. Because a primary component of Agent Orange’s declared National Emergency involves the exercise of the power of eminent domain, I.e. the seizure of private property in the name of a state priority, there will likely be a high bar to jump in the courts, and there could be a multitude of courts involved in litigation that takes years. The taking of property is limited by the Constitution, and is, so far as I am aware, rare to unheard-of during national emergency declarations. The emergency power of the President is legislative, not Constitutional. The plaintiffs are seeking injunctive relief and are likely to receive such. AO is likely to be in a Crimean exile before the matter is resolved.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
dillon
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: southeast NC coast

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby crfriend » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:17 pm

r.m.anderson wrote:I will throw this out to get my flesh torn to pieces and bits:

It's always a wise idea not to go into a fight believing you're going to get the snot kicked out of you. That pretty much guarantees the outcome.
What about -1- year before the general election have a RANK CHOICE VOTE of eligible interested candidates for the office. Whittle is down to the top three and vote away in a final election or just simply use the RCV as the method of election.

That's an interesting idea, but I suspect it wouldn't make a difference in a system where the candidates are already pre-chosen before the election. It'd be interesting if we had the data to see how this would have affected the last farce or any of the other recent "hotly-contested" ones.
Retire the Electoral College - this was manifested during a time of Revolution - YES we are still revolting against the government and the rich few who govern us.

Full agreement! It's obsolete and should go.
AND MAKE THE FEDERAL ELECTION DAY A "PAID" HOLIDAY No need to seek time off worry about getting to and from work afterward

Agreed again, save that I'd also make voting mandatory with an income-proportional fine for not doing so.
AND consider voting from home over a encrypted secure network - Russkies not invited and Absentee Ballots not delayed altered forged by sources on the streets !

No. The paper-trail is too important to lose. Doing it all electronically opens everything up to rampant -- and undetectable -- shenanigans. The Australian Ballot currently in use is adequate for this purpose. The best technology for this at the moment is the mark-sense ballot where one fills in little bubbles next to the candidates' names and these are subsequently counted optically by computer, but can be manually counted if needed (e.g. where systemic electronic fraud is suspected).
Campaign funding MUST be matched with equal qualified amounts paid to charity or humanitarian causes. If you are going to buy your way into office than it will be a shared event.

I hadn't thought of that one. That might blunt some of the force of "Citizens United" (a brilliant little piece of spin that name is).
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10232
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby crfriend » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:22 pm

dillon wrote:[... A] primary component of Agent Orange’s declared National Emergency involves the exercise of the power of eminent domain, I.e. the seizure of private property in the name of a state priority, there will likely be a high bar to jump in the courts, and there could be a multitude of courts involved in litigation that takes years.

Where's a complete transcript of the thing so I can get a proper read of the text? (Or is it a secret?) Whose property is going to be taken, and for what reason? The border-buffer is already Federal property, so no land-taking is likely necessary; what's the property to be taken consist of? A new and even bigger tax-increase?
The taking of property is limited by the Constitution, and is, so far as I am aware, rare to unheard-of during national emergency declarations. The emergency power of the President is legislative, not Constitutional. The plaintiffs are seeking injunctive relief and are likely to receive such. AO is likely to be in a Crimean exile before the matter is resolved.

We shall see, then whether my assertion of the United Stated being a post-Constitutional state is correct or not. I do not believe that the president is now beholden to the court system -- at least not from observed behaviour over the past couple of decades.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10232
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: Watch Beto O’Rourke tonight

Postby dillon » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:27 am

Just my opinion but this is not like taking land for a new highway, or an airport expansion. In those cases, the condemnations take years, and are preceded by a process of administrative bodies gathering information, conducting studies, and holding hearings under an established process. The deliberate process is generally transparent and beyond reproach. On the border, none of those things have occurred. All decisions are being dictated administratively. I just think it won’t take much before Trump people have to explain, justify and defend the policy and timing in a court of law. And that will be a tall order given the record of acts and statements. I think Trump’s only hope is to be saved by the SCOTUS. And I suspect even his appointees think more of the GOP and the future of conservatism than they will about his pathological vanity. They will take the long view for their philosophy over the short view of Trump and his rabid mob. Allowing the abuse of this Act and the precedent it would establish is not in the long range interest of the party or their movement. Because the succeeding Democratic President can then sidestep a GOP Congress for her own priorities.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
dillon
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: southeast NC coast

Previous

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest