Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby SkirtsDad » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Gusto10 wrote:to often that people don't have the feeling that the government represents te people by which it was appointed


Exactly, the government is doing bugger all to respect or do anything for the 62.7% of the electorate that did NOT vote leave.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:47 pm

SkirtsDad wrote:
Gusto10 wrote:to often that people don't have the feeling that the government represents te people by which it was appointed


Exactly, the government is doing bugger all to respect or do anything for the 62.7% of the electorate that did NOT vote leave.

The turnout on the Brexit referendum in 2016 was 72.21% of which was 51.89% pro Brexit. As the Uk had often support of amongst other the Netherlands, and thus was able to stop the German-French influence as the UK is against over regulation, while France is more into regulation and government involvement - more socialistic approach. Hence the Dutch will miss the UK (support) seriously.
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:19 pm

Gusto10 wrote:
skirtyscot wrote:Fear may be a bad consultant, but why do so many people seem to have none?

Various reasons I would say. To much hyping going on, to often that people don't have the feeling that the government represents te people by which it was appointed, the lack of awareness by governments that they are using the taxpayers money, to many hobby-horses being ridden, the performance of countries like Norway being able to do their own thing, etc. If life would be governed by fear there would be no room for inventions, etc. Why should what is communicated by governments be taken for granted? Why is being critical a no-no? What was the book 1984 about???
.

Well, if you think a succession of governments don't act in your interest, why would you vote to leave an organisation which fetters the government's ability to shaft you? The Social Chapter, resisted by the UK Govt and watered down as much as possible. Let's guess what any Tory Govt is going to do with that collection of regulations.

And what on earth makes anyone think that the bunch of right-wingers behind the Leave campaign are going to represent the interests of ordinary people? Their lies have been thoroughly exposed, why should anyone believe what they say? Being critical is a good thing, but how about looking at each side equally critically?
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Re: Brexit

Postby crfriend » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:34 pm

skirtyscot wrote:Being critical is a good thing, but how about looking at each side equally critically?

This is a much vaunted idea, but in practise anybody who actually employs the methodology winds up being reviled by all sides.

Independent critical thought employed by any of the lower-class rabble must be stepped upon, solidly and quickly -- and who better to police the matter than by the lower-class itself. This is the fundamental reason for the deep division that we're seeing in modern times. Invoking critical thought and reasoned analysis are reasonable things to do on one's own -- but just don't speak of your results in public, for those results will be very unpopular indeed and you will receive much grief for espousing them, and if you're not careful the next lot to show up on your doorstep will be wearing brown shirts.

It bothers me greatly that the EU seems to be using the United States as a model of Federalism and is trying to impose that on the member states. That's flawed thinking, and if the leadership in the EU actually studied the way the notion works in the USA in practise they'd see the error in thinking. The United States enjoyed what might perhaps be the bloodiest civil wars of all times over precisely that matter, and the scars and open wounds remain to this day. If the EU is actually trying to do that, the leadership is out of its collective mind.
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Re: Brexit

Postby pelmut » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:21 am

crfriend wrote:It bothers me greatly that the EU seems to be using the United States as a model of Federalism and is trying to impose that on the member states.

...but we have had it instilled in us from childhood that the American Way is always best, regardless of whether it is completely inappropriate to local circumstances.
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:41 am

Not all of us do. But we know that it's a prevalent enough notion, so that anything, good or bad, which is in the USA is likely to find its way over here before long.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:53 pm

crfriend wrote:It bothers me greatly that the EU seems to be using the United States as a model of Federalism and is trying to impose that on the member states. That's flawed thinking, and if the leadership in the EU actually studied the way the notion works in the USA in practise they'd see the error in thinking. The United States enjoyed what might perhaps be the bloodiest civil wars of all times over precisely that matter, and the scars and open wounds remain to this day. If the EU is actually trying to do that, the leadership is out of its collective mind.


It's not is much the US federal system, but now with the Brexit on hand the French-German alliance will prevail, But the question will be whether the French will be able to put their centralistic (suffocating socialistic) system into place or will the Germans put their federal system into place. It will depend on the way the successor of Angela Merkel will colour her task in.
Do note that the French always had a close relationship with the Tsar and Polish royalty, the last which fled to France in the late 18th century.

skirtyscot wrote:And what on earth makes anyone think that the bunch of right-wingers behind the Leave campaign are going to represent the interests of ordinary people? Their lies have been thoroughly exposed, why should anyone believe what they say? Being critical is a good thing, but how about looking at each side equally critically?


I doubt whether you can attribute such to right wingers, it's more who embraces the idea first. IF Corbyn would have succeeded Camaron, Corbyn woud have had to run the Brexit show. How would that have gone? The biggest problem is that all who were in the front row pro Brexit, like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson didn't volunteer for the job. but still the question remains May it or May it not happen, all we now know is the May wouldn't fall during April. May has a hell of a job trying to get all wishes fulfilled for which she needs i.m.o. much respect. In France Sarko was right wing, but he incorporated a number of left wing idea's - tax increases - whilst being president.
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Gusto10 wrote:
skirtyscot wrote:And what on earth makes anyone think that the bunch of right-wingers behind the Leave campaign are going to represent the interests of ordinary people?


I doubt whether you can attribute such to right wingers, it's more who embraces the idea first.

Of course I can. The most prominent people in the campaign were Tory right-wingers and Nigel Farrago.

Gusto10 wrote:IF Corbyn would have succeeded Camaron, Corbyn woud have had to run the Brexit show. How would that have gone?


Well couldn't possibly have gone worse than it is doing.

Gusto10 wrote:The biggest problem is that all who were in the front row pro Brexit, like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson didn't volunteer for the job.

No, the biggest problem is that Theresa May has been terrible. Leaning too far to the right with the red lines the ERG told her to draw. Throwing away her majority and then behaving as if she still had one. Invoking Article 50 before having a coherent plan, even thought she'd already had 9 months to come up with one. The list is endless.

Farrago wasn't able to volunteer for the job, on account of not being an MP, let alone a Tory one. Boris did volunteer - he's never been known to miss a chance to try to boost his career - but Gove stabbed him in the back.

Gusto10 wrote:but still the question remains May it or May it not happen, all we now know is the May wouldn't fall during April. May has a hell of a job trying to get all wishes fulfilled for which she needs i.m.o. much respect.

She has spent the entire time ignoring everybody except the ERG.

Respect? Hahahahahahahaha no.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Fred in Skirts » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:44 pm

I thought bad politicians and bad political parties were an U.S. thing. But it seems that the whole world is full of the excrement of the South end of a bull going North.

I have been following this thread for some time and have come to the conclusion that what ever happens NO-ONE will be happy, just as it happens here in the U. S.

So let us all come together and hoist a tall one and shout "HOORAA!"
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Re: Brexit

Postby Sinned » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:15 pm

I've thought for a long while that politicians [0] now come well below estate agents [0] and lawyers [0] in the respect stakes. I've come round to the opinion that a politician should only be allowed 2 terms of office and be disallowed for the rest of their lives of running again. And to think in my youth I wanted to be a politishan!!!! I also think that at the retirement age [1] all should have to retire whether the manual worker or judges [2] as everyone should have reached their level of incompetence by then and make way for younger blood.

[0] I refuse to capitalise their vocations out of lack of respect.
[1] 65, 66, 67, 68 or whatever yours is. Mine is 65, MOH's is 67 - a lottery by birth and she is only 1 year younger than me.
[2] ESPECIALLY judges, residing behind their estate walls and gates.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Brexit

Postby john62 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:47 pm

And lots of politicians are lawyers!
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Re: Brexit

Postby SkirtsDad » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:58 pm

skirtyscot wrote:
Gusto10 wrote:but still the question remains May it or May it not happen, all we now know is the May wouldn't fall during April. May has a hell of a job trying to get all wishes fulfilled for which she needs i.m.o. much respect.

She has spent the entire time ignoring everybody except the ERG.

Respect? Hahahahahahahaha no.


My sentiment exactly. She is nothing short of a belligerent, sanctimonious xenophobe, obsessed with imigration since her time at the homeoffice (if not before), and whose only interest, it would seem, is implimenting what she wants, regardless of concequences. The red lines that she has draw for Brexit are entirely her own doing and were not based on any cross-party concensus or even talking to her own people. Her idea of compromise, as even her own ministers have commented, is getting others to do what she wants, and if she can't she tries any unscupulous means to achieve it including bribary (DUP), trying to break the law (See Gina Miller court case) and threats (no deal/general election/no brexit) etc.

When it comes to her dislike of 'foreigners' just take a look at the Windrush Scandal where they deported people who have legitimately lived in the UK for over 40 years. This government goes after people who are legitimately here as presumably they make easier targets than chasing after people that are not in the system and who therefore can't be traced. In one instance, they tried to deport a friend of mine based on the idea that he was in a marriage of convenience (for 14 years and with a kid????) and that he'd married a Bulgarian so he could stay in Europe..... slight problem.... they overlook that when they got married Bulgaria was not even in the EU. After months of stress and meetings with lawyers it finally went to court..... the government didn't even turn up.... they were never going to win, but it didn't stop them wasting 10s of thousands of pounds of tax payers money.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Sinned » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:36 am

I take it that we have some fans of the PM out there then? :lol:
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:36 am

Sinned wrote:I've thought for a long while that politicians [0] now come well below estate agents [0] and lawyers [0] in the respect stakes. I've come round to the opinion that a politician should only be allowed 2 terms of office and be disallowed for the rest of their lives of running again. And to think in my youth I wanted to be a politishan!!!! I also think that at the retirement age [1] all should have to retire whether the manual worker or judges [2] as everyone should have reached their level of incompetence by then and make way for younger blood.

[0] I refuse to capitalise their vocations out of lack of respect.
[1] 65, 66, 67, 68 or whatever yours is. Mine is 65, MOH's is 67 - a lottery by birth and she is only 1 year younger than me.
[2] ESPECIALLY judges, residing behind their estate walls and gates.


I agree fully on the two terms. Also that they shouldn't come straight out of school (including University), but should have held a real job for at least ten years.
I too have peeked in to the life of a politician, but politics is a snake pit.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:39 am

Sinned wrote:I take it that we have some fans of the PM out there then? :lol:


i do think there is a minute difference between fan and respect. Respect for reason that she actually tries to get the job done one way or the other. And I do recognise that what ever course she takes there will be quit a bit of dissatisfaction out there.
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