Brexit

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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:19 am

The idea of a united Europe started of already in 1812 and was followed up by the Vienna Convention starting in 1814. No real decisions were taken than, now it takes according EU staff at least 5 years to get to a decision by the EU Parlement, if it gets there. Hence the brexit negotiations might be considered a rush matter. In addition the fear of what might happen, comparable with the fear what might have happend in 2000, is being used eventhough no one knows what will happen other than a return to the situation before. One of the major issues is that the UK has migration rom two sides, one from within the common wealth, the other from the EU-continent. The EU parlement is bloody expensive and people working there have tax free income plus supplemental hardship allowance even though Brussels is a grand and modern city. Also that the Parlement moves every half year to Strassbourg for a few months. The building thare is jokingly referred to as the largest sinkhole of Europe. The present idea of the Brexit is in line, according to Boris Johnson, with the vision of Churchhill for the post war situation, a united Europe on the continent whilst it's in the fog, and the UK on the sideline. I do think that the House of Commons is making a fool of itself at present. Wanting a Brexit, saying each and every time no to all proposals and not having a proper alternative plan carried by the majority makes them in my opinion the laughing stock.
I do think that the EU has to rethink what it wants as role, either become the full leader of the EU which means that there will not be role anymore for the presidents, Kings and Queens of Europe (and the special royal council of the EU can be abolished) in line with the ICC Agreement, or it should become just a simple facilitating office like it was some 20 years ago where each country in the EU is self depending and no more subsidising of the "poor" countries and if countries as Greece fail, let it be their own problem. Why should persons living in the UK, Holland, Belgium, France be taxed so the national governments can bail out another country which has a full fledged national economy based on barter trade and the use of the electronic drachme.
ICC = Int Criminal Court
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Re: Brexit

Postby Sinned » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:08 am

Well said, Gusto. I couldn't agree more with your comments. Europe is in a half-way house at the moment and seems to be moving more towards full integration with the United States as a model. I don't want that as a target which is why I voted to leave. Expensive the EU certainly is and I think needs to look at trimming a lot of fat off but of course being on the gravy train, won't. The movement of the Parliament was at the insistence of the French who didn't want to be left out of where the seat of power was located, another financial drain.
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Re: Brexit

Postby dillon » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:09 pm

As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:14 pm

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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:03 am

Sinned wrote: Probably the vast majority in this country want the powers to just get on with it, exit Europe and pick up the pieces after.


Anyone who genuinely wants that to happen either is very stupid or hasn't really tried to understand the consequences.

Sinned wrote: Even the Remainers aren't as vocal as they have been.


They get drowned out by Leavers moaning that it isn't all going to plan. Especially on the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation. The trouble of course is that there is no plan.

A choice quote from an article in the Grauniad https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ees-brexit - To see a country “deliberately throwing away a close, mutually beneficial partnership, wilfully damaging its economy and influence on a point of cultural principle … was a surprise”.
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Re: Brexit

Postby pelmut » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:22 am

skirtyscot wrote: - To see a country “deliberately throwing away a close, mutually beneficial partnership, wilfully damaging its economy and influence on a point of cultural principle … was a surprise”.

The author of that seems to have forgotten the immense damage done to the U.K. economy since the 1970s by inappropriate European regulations.  It is partly our own fault for allowing jobsworth civil servants to mis-apply them without any kind of accountability - but mainly the fault of our gravy-train representatives in Europe for allowing them to become laws in the first place.  These rules are what we should have voted to throw out and then arranged to keep the tarriff-free trading arrangements by some other means.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:24 am

pelmut wrote:
skirtyscot wrote: - To see a country “deliberately throwing away a close, mutually beneficial partnership, wilfully damaging its economy and influence on a point of cultural principle … was a surprise”.

The author of that seems to have forgotten the immense damage done to the U.K. economy since the 1970s by inappropriate European regulations.  It is partly our own fault for allowing jobsworth civil servants to mis-apply them without any kind of accountability - but mainly the fault of our gravy-train representatives in Europe for allowing them to become laws in the first place.  These rules are what we should have voted to throw out and then arranged to keep the tarriff-free trading arrangements by some other means.

Whether there is a close mutual beneficial partnership could be debatable. The countries which benefit most are in Southern and eastern Europe. West European countries are the ones carrying the EU financially. Due to Angela Merkel those countries are seriously confronted with the migration and the problems forthcoming there form. It are also the countries which financed Greece and no way it debts will be repaid.
The French and Dutch opposed the EU statute. Even though one veto would have been suffice to cancel it, it was still put into place. recently the French opposed the Dutch using the electric puls fishing system as they considered it unfair. Such was the same in the 17th century when the French opposed the Dutch for working together while fishing while the French were solo during fishing.
As various friends in the UK indicated that the economy of the UK is all but doing bad, the question rises whether indeed there has been a beneficial relationship.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Sinned » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:40 pm

The UK has a negative trade balance with the EU which means that we sell less to them than they sell to us. So in theory any embargoes, which we would probably apply mutually, would hurt them more than us. So really they need us more than we need them. Well, in theory anyway. Yes the western "countries" in the EU are subsidising the eastern in huge amounts. But the PIGS countries have been a drain for a while with Greece and Italy being the largest risk. Portugal and Spain less so with Ireland probably the best. Still huge economies to go down.
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:53 pm

pelmut wrote:The author of that seems to have forgotten the immense damage done to the U.K. economy since the 1970s by inappropriate European regulations.
 

Such as...? Remember that 95% of EU laws have the support of the UK.

pelmut wrote:These rules are what we should have voted to throw out and then arranged to keep the tarriff-free trading arrangements by some other means.


Such as...? Other countries get tariff - free trade with the EU by agreeing a trade deal with them. But there is a price to pay for that. Look at the various existing deals which are offered up as models for a possible UK deal.
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:10 pm

Sinned wrote:The UK has a negative trade balance with the EU which means that we sell less to them than they sell to us. So in theory any embargoes, which we would probably apply mutually, would hurt them more than us. So really they need us more than we need them. Well, in theory anyway.


Maybe, but not in practice. The EU has a far larger economy than the UK, so it could withstand the loss far more easily.

But it's not all about the existing trade balance. Companies will leave the UK and move to the EU to be able to continue to enjoy borderless trade. They're leaving already. Our trade deficit will worsen and jobs will disappear.
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Re: Brexit

Postby pelmut » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:17 am

skirtyscot wrote:
pelmut wrote:The author of that seems to have forgotten the immense damage done to the U.K. economy since the 1970s by inappropriate European regulations.
 

Such as...?

The restrictions placed on British agriculture.  Initially to deal with 'milk lakes'and 'butter mountains' and now used to micro-manage the industry to the point of absurdity.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 am

skirtyscot wrote:
Sinned wrote:The UK has a negative trade balance with the EU which means that we sell less to them than they sell to us. So in theory any embargoes, which we would probably apply mutually, would hurt them more than us. So really they need us more than we need them. Well, in theory anyway.


Maybe, but not in practice. The EU has a far larger economy than the UK, so it could withstand the loss far more easily.

But it's not all about the existing trade balance. Companies will leave the UK and move to the EU to be able to continue to enjoy borderless trade. They're leaving already. Our trade deficit will worsen and jobs will disappear.

Fear is a bad consultant. prior to the present regulations treaties were in place, treaties which were the basis for the EU regulations. I was informed that now with the brexit on hand the IK had been able to make beneficial treaties with other countries, something they couldn't do due to EU regulations. It's not without reason that Shell and Uniliver have HQ's in both the UK and the Netherlands.
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:21 pm

Oh yes, the treaties with other countries. That's going ever so well. So many already signed up, including Switzerland, Chile and... wait for it... it's a real biggie... the Faroes!
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-8370

We already have a ton of trade agreements with other countries, because we're in the EU. But part of our hari-kiri is to walk away from all of them. Small countries are willing to keep the existing deals, but surprise surprise the big countries are going to look for something better. Japan, whose EU trade deal came into effect at the start of February, has said that they will be looking for everything the EU gave them, and more, from the UK. The idea that countries would be queuing up to do deals with us, and that it would be easy to negotiate them, was at best a fantasy. One of the many fantasies and lies told by Boris and his pals.

Chlorinated chicken, anyone?
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Re: Brexit

Postby skirtyscot » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:24 pm

Fear may be a bad consultant, but why do so many people seem to have none?
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Re: Brexit

Postby Gusto10 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:43 am

skirtyscot wrote:Fear may be a bad consultant, but why do so many people seem to have none?

Various reasons I would say. To much hyping going on, to often that people don't have the feeling that the government represents te people by which it was appointed, the lack of awareness by governments that they are using the taxpayers money, to many hobby-horses being ridden, the performance of countries like Norway being able to do their own thing, etc. If life would be governed by fear there would be no room for inventions, etc. Why should what is communicated by governments be taken for granted? Why is being critical a no-no? What was the book 1984 about???
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