Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress ...

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Sinned
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by Sinned »

I haven't watched the news for weeks so have no idea what the agenda is on Brexit. It will happen or it won't. Maybe there is more chance of it happening than not. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a strong call for another referendum to get the answer "right" this time. Or has there?
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by moonshadow »

Sinned wrote:I haven't watched the news for weeks so have no idea what the agenda is on Brexit. It will happen or it won't. Maybe there is more chance of it happening than not. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a strong call for another referendum to get the answer "right" this time. Or has there?
This Brexit thing intrigues me.

If you would, tell me, as a U.K. citizen, what do you think it will mean for you and people like you in either scenario?

I do so seldomly get to speak with an ordinary British citizen, normally just hearing the little soundbites here and there (as we too in the states have a lot on our plate at the moment....)
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by trainspotter48 »

Moon,

My (personal) view on Brexit is this:-
Britain has a well established government and legal system. In the 1970's both of our main government parties thought it would be good for Britain to join the European Economic Community (Common Market) as this was seen as aiding British exports (The more cynical of us predicted that there would be more imports from Europe than exports).
All was well for some time, then the EEC started changing into the European Union (EU). This brought about the 'open borders' policy, making it possible for any EU citizen to move to any other EU country, as well as the European Court of Human Rights, both of which appear to have cut across the pre-existing British provisions.
It is worth bearing in mind that Britain has a National Health Service as well as other support systems that can make Britain look very attractive to an outsider - hence a lot of 'Economic Migration' from some of the poorer countries of Europe.
The government called a country- wide referendum as to whether we should leave or stay in the EU, and the vote fell narrowly in favour of leaving - hence Brexit.
However, it looks as though the money markets have a good thing going with the EU, whereas all that the man in the street sees is a large contribution to the EU that never quite seems to come back in grants for various functions eg farming, redevelopment etc, coupled with a large influx of migrants.
I again stress that this is my personal view, and others are free to add or subtract from it.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by moonshadow »

Thanks for sharing your input trainspotter.

I am truly ignorant of much of the Brexit issue. Hell, I'm pretty ignorant of American issues for that matter... :?

I can understand the sentiments. Hypothetically if the U.S., Canada, and Mexico were to enter into such an alliance, I can only imagine what would come out of it.

I've never really fully understood the concept of the EU. On the one hand, it seemed to resemble (to me anyway) something akin to what we have here with the individual states that make up the union. However on the other hand, I realize that the various nations of the EU have (or had) more autonomy than a U.S. state would.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you all do share a common currency now don't you (the "Euro")? I remember hearing about that when I was younger. Here stateside, I recall evangelical preachers rattling on about the end times that would usher in with the world domination with the Euro.

So do you all still use your traditional currency in conjunction with the Euro? If so, how does that work?

If not, will you return to your traditional currency? I'm curious as to how this works out with your GDP, national debt, and other matters?

The real rabbit hole in this scenario is trying to determine the direction of the "deep state"?

It's a hell of a divorce....
-Andrea
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by FranTastic444 »

Where is that popcorn gif when you need it :-)

Brexit is a very emotive issue that divides Brits. As a sweeping generalisation you are more likely to have voted for Brexit if you are over 50 and less likely to have voted for Brexit if you are below 50. Districts in and around London and Scotland voted in the main to remain, whereas in much of the rest of the country people voted to leave.

When the UK went into Europe it was framed around trade, but even then the published aims of what was then the EEC was for ever closer union of the member states. There were, and still are, people who are looking ultimately for a United States of Europe with a common currency and army as well as harmonisation of foreign policy etc.

From the off there has been a contingent on the political right in the UK who have been against being in Europe. Some see it is as a left-leaning organisation and, just like the Rand Pauls of this world, they do not like big a government that is seen to be a nanny state that over regulates.

Some on the left (like the Jeremy Corbyn's of this world) see the EU as a social elite to be despised and they also don't like the way that the rules of being in Europe deny governments the ability to subsidize industries such as steel, manufacturing, energy etc.

With one of the central themes of Brexit being "take back control" it is somewhat ironic that even after 30 months of negotiating, planning and bickering there seems to be so many different views on an acceptable Brexit (from all out and damn the consequences to remain and several shades of Hokey Cokey in between) that no one scheme is going to get enough support to get on the statute books.

With a weak government and an emboldened right, David Cameron feared the breakup of the Tory party and / or election loss due to people from his party supporting the anti-immigration Ukip party. Under duress he agreed to an EU referendum which, in the early days at least, pretty much everyone thought would be won by the remainers. An influx of Eastern Europeans to the UK and the inability of the UK to expel some nasty individuals due to the Human Rights Act played into the hands of what we now know as the Brexiteers.

The Brexiteers fought what some people (myself amongst them) think of as a dirty campaign - lies, damn lies and statistics and all of that (£350M per week to the NHS plastered on the side of a bus, talk of a Turkish invasion from Boris (who denied saying any such thing when he was at JCB the other day) and the spectre of Russian interference / funding via Aaron Banks). All helped no-end by the fact that Labour under Jeremy Corbyn didn't exactly go out of their way to convince many working class people that voting for Brexit really was like turkeys voting for Christmas.

There are a lot of similarities between what is going on in Europe and the US with regards to attitudes to immigration. Theresa May (as a former Home Secretary) has talked about controlled immigration but historically many more people have left the UK than have arrived and a large portion of recent immigration has come from outside the EU.

The above is just my personal interpretation as a pro-remain, pro Europe (accepting that the Union has many flaws but has contributed much to its citizens over the years) immigrant Brit watching from afar in America through the gaps between the fingers of my hands that cover my face each time I watch or read about the subject.

Fortunately, the UK never joined the Euro - we are still using the Great British Pound. I think the Euro is a deeply flawed because it prevents a sovereign nation from devaluing its currency in the case of financial peril and controlling its interest rate. Part of the problems being faced by Europe now are that Germany in particular was allowed to overheat its economy (which would normally have led to inflation and interest rate rises) whilst keeping a low interest rate Euro, which was hurting some of the poorer countries like Greece and Italy who would have raised interest rates and devalued their currency (by printing more cash) had they a currency of their own.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by FranTastic444 »

Putting aside all the angst and pain this is causing, as a lifelong follower of politics it is fascinating to watch how this is panning out. The Speaker of the House has pulled some stunts that go against hundreds of years of parliamentary convention (he will allegedly not get a place in the House of Lords as custom normally dictates) and now there is talk of back-bench MP's taking control from the Front Bench to prevent a no-deal exit and possibly to delay article 50, with others trying to effectively dissolve parliament to stop other legislation from being enacted.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

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Moon, trainspotter has pretty much said what I would have. To us Europe has interfered too much in little ways. To take an example, Europe wanted, and fought hard to impose, the SI system upon us and ditch the Imperial measures. There was a famous court case when a small trader was brought before court for not offering his goods in kilogrammes. As a result we now have the ludicrous? situation where traders have to display in both kg and lbs/ozs if they want to display Imperial units. To me anyway it was an unnecessary attempt by the European Parliament to impose what wasn't wanted. But then that's the arrogance of the European entity. I accept that Imperial units will die out but should be allowed to as a consequence of the older generation vanishing. This is just one small example of many thousands. And European dictates take priority over the wishes of any sovereign state. Our problem is that we take each edict seriously and implement them irrespective of their logic or need, whereas the French, Italians and Spanish in particular ignore what doesn't suit them.

Bercow has often overstepped the bounds of good Parliamentary protocol and this is just another example. He was expected to step down in 2020 but it is now being said that if he is denied his Peerage he may stay on for the full length of this Parliament. Which may be anything from weeks to 2022. One example of a man exercising power over influence due to an overlarge sense of self importance. For a Tory he does very well supporting Labour ( the opposition ) at times.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by FranTastic444 »

Firstoff, Dennis, you need to visit my fancy dress post and share your story before I recount it for you :-) :-) :-)

Being mindful of thread creep I'll break out a separate Brexit thread.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

oldsalt1 wrote:Hey you didn't say anything about my skirt suit.
Dammit OldSalt! I thought the Army trained how to follow directions better than this!

This thread isn't about skirts or dresses, it's about politics and opinions thereon. There you go again! Trying to derail the train of thread! :wink: :D :lol:

If I could have found a picture of you in a suit, I would have commented on it … in the original thread.

As to your saying my father earned the right to his opinion for having "stood a post." No, I think he would tell you that every one of us has earned that right for just having been fortunate enough to have washed up on these shores, even if it's only electronically.

As for the humor Carl saw in the whole business of disposing of a flag, let me run it by you this way:

The most disrespectful thing you can do to the US flag is to burn it in protest, which all by itself is ironic given that the US was born out of protests of government actions.
But the most respectful way to dispose of a US flag that is in such poor condition as to make it a disgrace to display is to … burn it!

Does that help you see the irony that tickled CR's funny bone?

C'mon pal, loosen up and lighten up. You'll live even longer that way.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by oldsalt1 »

Cr has no respect for the flag or the national anthem his referral to them as "THE THING " demonstrates that. And yes I do see the irony in it. I just can not accept his comment that it is HILARIOUS. The same type of irony exists for the Fireman who chooses to be cremated would it be proper for me to call that hilarious.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by Elisabetta »

oldsalt1 wrote:Cr has no respect for the flag or the national anthem his referral to them as "THE THING " demonstrates that. And yes I do see the irony in it. I just can not accept his comment that it is HILARIOUS. The same type of irony exists for the Fireman who chooses to be cremated would it be proper for me to call that hilarious.

Oldsalt you need a breather. Let it go take the high road. Why you gotta keep rehatching things? You’re going to give yourself a heart attack getting worked up. You expect everyone to agree with you all the time and when they don’t you throw a tantrum.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

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As for our National Anthem, it isn't universally liked. If you read subsequent verses there is a distinctly anti-Scottish flavour about them. The comedian Billy Connelly gave a good skit about this in his "An Audience With ....". He said that the NA was too much like a dirge and compared it to some of the more lively Anthems of other countries while marching up and down the stage [0]. Quite amusing as Connelly can be. See, we can poke fun at our own foibles and not get uptight about it. Burning the flag, who cares? Make fun of Anthem and Country, again who cares? I don't as the come into the category of ".... words can't hurt me" because I just don't care about the actions or opinions of the offenders. In that regard OS and I are diametrically opposite and I'll not understand what he's getting upset about.

[0][ Interesting that we say up and down the stage as opposed to across the stage. The stage doesn't rise and fall.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by pelmut »

Sinned wrote: [0][ Interesting that we say up and down the stage as opposed to across the stage. The stage doesn't rise and fall.
Stages were 'raked', i.e. sloped towards the audience to give them a better view.  It is very disconcerting working in an old theatre until you get used to it.
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by moonshadow »

Regarding burning:

I think it comes down to the reason for burning the flag. As somewhat of a "heathen" I've been known to burn things out of respect. I accidentally left my favorite tarot deck out in the rain one night and they got ruined. The deck had been with me many years and I was a little heart broken by it. Not sure what to do with them (it seemed disrespectful to just chuck them in the garbage), on the next backyard fire we had, once the flames had died down to embers and everyone had went inside, I somewhat ceremoniously burned them in the fire.

I also burn all my old Christmas trees, as they were once living things, and they brought joy to our home for the holidays. It always saddens me to see a dumpster full of Christmas trees the week after Christmas. Burning mine seemed like a dignified end for the tree.

On the other hand, I've also burned things to eliminate negative energies. A long time ago I burned all of the pictures and old love letters from my ex. More recently I took great pleasure in burning my name badges from my former employer. Maybe a little childish? Perhaps, but damn it felt good to do.

I also look forward to burning our mortgage papers in 13 1/2 more years.... What a day that will be!

More closer will be the payoff of Jenn's car. Once the title shows up in the mail, I look forward to burning the loan paperwork!
-Andrea
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Re: Musings on the Political Discussion in "Wearing a Dress

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Ceremony is one of those human needs that seems to be getting lost in our overly busy modern world.

Kudos to you, Moonshadow, for creating personal ceremonies to celebrate the every day miracles of your life.
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