Highway planning muppets

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.
Post Reply
Disaffected.citizen
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:16 am
Location: UK

Highway planning muppets

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

Inspired by the thread drift in Mom's visit, how about posting links to highway planning mayhem that you've encountered?

I'll start with this one I got caught up in several years ago. If you slowly zoom out you will see the bigger layout.

The problem isn't with day to day operation; it's when there's an accident on a particular part of the main dual carriageway and it gets closed. Then, the traffic is diverted off to other routes and here is where the problem lies; the northbound and southbound traffic streams must cross each others' paths at the two roundabouts just located to the east.

This is a busy arterial road, so mix in the rush hour traffic and you get 20+ miles of gridlock!

And then there's always the Gravelly Hill Interchange, colloquially known as Spaghetti Junction. Not quite so daft, but you need your wits about you if you need to divert.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by crfriend »

Disaffected.citizen wrote:I'll start with this one I got caught up in several years ago.
Tell me, good sir, are "recreational pharmaceuticals" legal in that jurisdiction? That might explain many things about that monstrosity. (Although, rather clearly, it was two separate plans that nobody ever coordinated on.)
And then there's always the Gravelly Hill Interchange, colloquially known as Spaghetti Junction.
Stuff like that is common enough when there are a number of major motorways involved.

On these here shores, Denver has what's known as The Mousetrap, an overhead view of which is available from the usual source. I love the commentary about the overturned lorry-load of torpedoes.

Then there's the interchange between I-90 and I-93 in the Big City to my east which is a mind-boggling exercise in three-dimensional complexity. The cool bit with that "piece or work" is that I worked as the sysadmin for the computer-graphics department of the place that designed it, and got to see it take shape every morning and evening from the train to and from the Big City to my west (although it was south at the time).

Lastly, although there are more examples, we have The George Washington Bridge in New York City and the bridge's environs. You'll need to zoom in on this to fully appreciate it, and recall that the thing is eight lanes wide in some places and multi-decked. This one, too, is a 3-D maze.

I have driven though all of them. Survivability was decent in all of them, but I almost made my father soil himself back in the early 1980s when on a trip back from Pittsburgh I wound up in the left lane and needed to be in the right lane. My old man was helpful enough, "I don't think we want to go to Yonkers.", to which I replied, "Yonk this!", found an opening just large enough, threw the helm down, and in about six seconds was in the right-hand lane with a hyper-ventilating old man in the right-hand seat. (Boston training.) "Don't ever do that to me again." // "Ya wanna go to Yonkers? I can turn around." // "Shut up and drive."
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
stevelous
Active Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:51 am
Location: Northern Home Counties, England

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by stevelous »

Looking at the interchanges/bridges iam left wondering if these mupets look at the 'pipes' screensaver and use that as a guide, after some interesting substances.

I have used spaghetti junction a few times getting from the M6 to the M5 and youneed your wits about you, I seen to remember when youngerva journalist said that the length of the roads within the junction was 22 miles, I would guess that would be laid end to end.
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3224
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by denimini »

I think it is just human nature, we have the same thing happening outside our town.
Mallee_tracks_s.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
User avatar
beachlion
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1627
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:15 am
Location: 65 year The Hague, The Netherlands, then Allentown, PA, USA

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by beachlion »

Every time I go to the beach at Sandy Hook I have to go over this macadam screw up, 440 and 95. At the bottom there are 21 lanes crossing the river near New York. And it is still very crowded. But I suvived the Italian autostrada and the rush hours in Catania (at Sicily), Paris (France) and Amsterdam (Netherlands). I'm not easily disturbed by mad road planners.
New York spaghetti roads.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
All progress takes place outside the comfort zone - M J Bobak
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by Kirbstone »

I think 'Muppets' is a very forgiving appellation. 'Highway robbers', more like.

Here in Ireland we came very late to this new highway building thing, having lived with single carriageway inter-city roads with country crossroads for nigh-on 70 years since 'Independence'.
In the last 25 or so years they have built lots of shiny new motorways, but the greatest gaff imaginable was in the building of Dublin's peripheral, the M50. Originally designed with free-flow interchanges, the politicians eventually had it built with just two lanes & roundabouts over it to save money & space and flogged off the land adjacent to piggy-back light industry developers, who fancied having their box near a junction.

The result was predictable chaos as the economy and population grew. Answer: Throw ten plus times the original cost at it to upgrade it from end to end and things are a little better now. Pics show examples of changes, some elegant, others not so.

Tom
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
User avatar
beachlion
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1627
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:15 am
Location: 65 year The Hague, The Netherlands, then Allentown, PA, USA

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by beachlion »

A nice one close to where I used to live, near The Hague. Sorry for the Dutch, I could not find an English version. It is in 4 levels and it works quite well.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prins_Clausplein

And another one in the center of Holland, near to Utrecht. I used this one for 22 year to go to work.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knooppunt_Oudenrijn
All progress takes place outside the comfort zone - M J Bobak
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by crfriend »

Kirbstone wrote:The result was predictable chaos as the economy and population grew. Answer: Throw ten plus times the original cost at it to upgrade it from end to end and things are a little better now. Pics show examples of changes, some elegant, others not so.
Where are the canal and railway in the latter images? I can't seem to make them out. Were they sacrificed to feed the insatiable appetites of the auto and petroleum industries?

I thought you guys were better than that.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Disaffected.citizen
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:16 am
Location: UK

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

crfriend wrote:
Disaffected.citizen wrote:I'll start with this one I got caught up in several years ago.
Tell me, good sir, are "recreational pharmaceuticals" legal in that jurisdiction? That might explain many things about that monstrosity. (Although, rather clearly, it was two separate plans that nobody ever coordinated on.)
They need to be... for anybody caught up in the mêlée. In truth, I suspect experimental pharmaceuticals were more likely involved, but I believe we've been undergoing a state sponsored social experiment in the UK; it involves reducing the level of education and thought capabilities of the general populace.
stevelous wrote:Looking at the interchanges/bridges iam left wondering if these mupets look at the 'pipes' screensaver and use that as a guide, after some interesting substances.
That would explain quite a lot of it.
denimini wrote:I think it is just human nature, we have the same thing happening outside our town.
Mallee_tracks_s.jpg
Is that Mars after initial terra-forming? :lol: You have so much space available!
beachlion wrote:Every time I go to the beach at Sandy Hook I have to go over this macadam screw up, 440 and 95. At the bottom there are 21 lanes crossing the river near New York. And it is still very crowded. But I suvived the Italian autostrada and the rush hours in Catania (at Sicily), Paris (France) and Amsterdam (Netherlands). I'm not easily disturbed by mad road planners.
New York spaghetti roads.jpg
That appears to be the Garden State Pkwy where it intersects the 440. I'd like to say there's a certain "art form" to its design, but I suspect the art was in the mind of a spider!

And, if you've had the dubious pleasure of rush hour Paris (France, I assume from other European references) may I assume that involved Boulevard Périphérique!!!
Kirbstone wrote:I think 'Muppets' is a very forgiving appellation. 'Highway robbers', more like.
True, it is very forgiving; I'm not sure why I chose it, as most Muppets have a redeeming appeal! Your description fits better.
crfriend wrote:
Kirbstone wrote:The result was predictable chaos as the economy and population grew. Answer: Throw ten plus times the original cost at it to upgrade it from end to end and things are a little better now. Pics show examples of changes, some elegant, others not so.
Where are the canal and railway in the latter images? I can't seem to make them out. Were they sacrificed to feed the insatiable appetites of the auto and petroleum industries?

I thought you guys were better than that.
I believe images 1 and 2 are of the same junction, but from differing angles; you can just about make out the canal and railway (I used the buildings common to both images for alignment). In the first picture they run from (using a clockface for orientation) about 12:00 to 6:00; in the second from about 10:00 to 5:00. I believe this is the map location.

The third is here, I believe (again, from the buildings).
beachlion wrote:A nice one close to where I used to live, near The Hague. Sorry for the Dutch, I could not find an English version. It is in 4 levels and it works quite well.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prins_Clausplein

And another one in the center of Holland, near to Utrecht. I used this one for 22 year to go to work.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knooppunt_Oudenrijn
I've been through the second of those en-route from Hoek van Holland to Apeldoorn; but l think I joined from the A20, not the A4.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by crfriend »

Disaffected.citizen wrote:The third is here [from Kirbstone's post], I believe (again, from the buildings).
There wasn't enough detail in Tom's third attachment to tell what was going on vis-a-vis the railway and the canal, but in the google-maps view I can see no hint whatsoever of either. There is a very faint scar in the ground that may have been one or the other, but most evidence, for quite a radius from "ground zero" has been very effectively erased. :(
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Disaffected.citizen
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:16 am
Location: UK

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

crfriend wrote:
Disaffected.citizen wrote:The third is here [from Kirbstone's post], I believe (again, from the buildings).
There wasn't enough detail in Tom's third attachment to tell what was going on vis-a-vis the railway and the canal, but in the google-maps view I can see no hint whatsoever of either. There is a very faint scar in the ground that may have been one or the other, but most evidence, for quite a radius from "ground zero" has been very effectively erased. :(
Sorry, I should have clarified; I believe the first two are of the same junction and the third is a different, albeit relatively nearby, location.
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by Kirbstone »

Beachlion, When it comes to building people-friendly infrastructure, be it bicycle parking or dams or M-ways, The Dutch have it in Spades, but:

I'm chuffed that you guys are interested in my posted pics of wanton public funds wastage here in Ireland.

DC is perfectly right and his map-seeking will also show 'Our' interchange, M50/N7 which I use every week going galley-slaving. It has the Luas light rail threaded through it. Converting the original roundabout with lights there to an interchange with the traffic still flowing throughout was described by the chief engineer as doing open heart surgery on a patient who was going to the office every day!

Pic 3 is of another junction where they got rid of the roundabout, re-used the M-way bridges and incorporated them
into a very elegant little space-saving interchange within the land confines they had available without evicting anybody.

Pics 1 & 2 are different views, of course, but the railway, canal and roundabout remain.

Later pics: 1/ 'Mad Cow' N7/M50. Roundabout bridges retained, but supplemented to form an interchange. Again, planners were tight for space due to sell-off of land.

2/ Nice old steamer at M50/N3 overpass, Roundabout on top. Daft!

3/ M1/M50 junction: Roundabout also retained for local traffic, M-way traffic now bypasses it on new roads. They had space available there, near the airport.

Tom
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by crfriend »

Hmmm... It looks like they sometimes get it right:

N7 and some minor roadways in Eireann

... which Mr. Kirbstone will likely recognise. I quite like the looks of that, and it even plays well driving on the right-hand side of the road (which is, of course, the left).

Driver to Navigator: That's a left coming up in 500 feet?

Navigator: Right.

Result: confusion and a missed turn. (This actually happened precisely once when my ex was navigator. It never happened again and proper terminology was subsequently used. With the advent of zoomable maps and commonplace aerial photography all the ruled changed and I started committing routes and backups to memory before departing home.)
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Kirbstone
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:55 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Highway planning muppets

Post by Kirbstone »

Yes, That little junction is quite near Naas, where I work. They can save on bridges where traffic volumes are low, so a roundabout on either side of a single highway bridge is common here.
With our low population the rural motorway network is very lightly used, much to the delight of UK visitors who tend to bomb along at well into three figures enjoying the 'freedom'.
A close rowing friend, retired from a highways civil service job in Belfast, N. Ireland declares that our rural traffic volumes in no way justify the investment in motorways in the South. In his neck-o'-the-woods they haven't a single motorway that actually connects two cities at all, even now!! We shamed them into doing something about their end of the Dublin-Belfast route, which is now all dual carriageway, but at their end some very iffy junctions with level crossing of the central divide remain.......

Tom

P.S. I did some navigating for my closest brother who did some amateur rally driving when we were both young. To avoid the incorrect use of 'right', the response is either 'Roger' or 'Copy that'. 'OK' works, too.
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
Post Reply