Men suffer more from sexism

[moonshadow]

As unfair as the world is when it comes to men vs women disputes.... at the same time, nobody is twisting any man's arm into getting hitched.

Until men stop thinking with their penises and start using their heads, and start making selective choices on who they partner up with in life then these type of scenarios will continue.

Also, I do believe we should be careful when we generalize that all men are victims and all women are oppressors. I've seen quite a few testosterone charged asses out and about that when their wife eventually walked out and raked him over the coals.... he had it coming.

Teach your sons that yes women are people, and deserve to be respected as such, no you do not have to marry one or otherwise involve yourself with one, and finally, if you do [marry one], understand that should it go south, courts do tend to favor women.

In the age of the internet, there is no shortage of male horror stories when it comes to divorce proceedings.... sit Jr. down and go over the ramifications if the love of his life walks. Let him see first hand, and then ask him... "do you really trust that girl enough to hand over your life to her?"

But really, the point of my post here is, as Amber and I discussed this the other day, we both agreed that people are crazy... ALL of them! Which is not to say you can't have a good life. Just keep in mind that down at the core, humans are very self serving, and generally look out for "number one".

Know your place. You may be important to yourself, and maybe your mother. But past that, the world could care less about you. That goes for men and women. Everybody is serving a personal agenda. That's just the way it is.

I'm not trying to be a downer, or pessimistic, I'm just calling it like it is. The sooner we accept the people of the world for what they are, and set our expectations accordingly, then we can begin to rise above it.

Also, fun side note... before we hold men blameless in the woes of the world... recall that since I've started wearing skirts, virtually ALL resistance, drama, and other nasties I've encountered were started by other men! Women generally have had little issue with it, save for the occasional ultra religious ones. In fact, many women have smiled and complimented my looks. Men on the other hand... just snare and shake their head in disgust.

In fact, now that I think about it, outside of internet "faves" of other like minded fashion souls, I don't think I've EVER received positive feedback on my skirts from a single man... EVER.

Yep... men are their own worst enemy.

[Gusto10]

This being a U.K. article won't have much effect on the injustices taking hold over here stateside.

I have read somewhere that more men are avoiding marriage these days then ever before. I'd venture a guess that there is just too much risk for the man involved.

Although it's important to note that things are CONSIDERABLY better than they were in the "good old days".

I have come to find out that it wasn't long ago, as in up until the early 1980's and even beyond is some court cases, that the man was indeed considered the "head" of the household, the provider, the bread winner, "father knows best" and all that stuff.

That was was the way of it up until the mid twentieth century. It was an easy enough system to function in, divorces were hard to get, women couldn't hold credit cards, or engage in many other practices a man could. When a divorce DID happen, naturally the woman was indeed left with no means to take care of herself as the economical world wasn't very kind to women prior to the 1960's. Thus courts would take a great deal of pity on women in divorce proceedings, especially if the man screwed up.

My grandmother hardly worked a day in her life outside of the home. Which is NOT to say she didn't work. No, she worked her ass off, just at home. She raised five children in an old run down house where we're from. Dad tells me stories of no running water, chopping wood for the winter, gardening NOT as a hobby but as a genuine means of sustenance. There were no microwave dinners, suppers took all day to prepare, and they never ate breakfast cereal, it was always a full breakfast including bacon, eggs, sausage, etc. Some of that continued into my life as I recall her still making fried eggs and sausage links for my step-grandfather up until he died in the late 1990's.

Her husband, my grandfather died before I was born in the mid 70's. The story goes that when he died, he basically left her not knowing a thing about how to survive in the world. The woman had never even drove a car. The five kids were mostly grown by then, I believe the youngest might have been in his mid teens. My father was in his late teens/early twenties. Probably the biggest thing that saved her was most of her kids were old enough to help her along. She did get her drivers license and drove a little bit, but she was terrified of the practice and avoided driving at all cost. As the stories go, she was one of those that would putz along at about 30MPH below the speed limit with her hands clutching the steering wheel for dear life! She also had to find a job. I don't remember where she worked, but I don't think it lasted very long as I understand I believe the kids took care of her until she met Gordon, her late husband (the one I knew).

Can you imagine being a upper 40's woman having NEVER held a job, drove a car, lived in the hills your whole life, never having any real exposure to the world outside your home and suddenly BAM.... your husband... the one who kept the world at the door keels over with a heart attack! The story goes when he died, she had to be taken to the hospital and given something to calm her nerves.

Now imagine this husband just runs out on you, leaving you with the kids, and having no idea how to make it out there, PLUS living in a society where women still can't contract on many things such as debt, and yes, there REALLY was a pay gap in those days!

There are other stories I've been told that I'm not going to mention here as both of them are deceased now and there is really no reason to dig up old bones, but suffice it to say... life was hard for women like my grandmother. The fact that she lived past 80 surprises me.

Everything I wrote above is why we have/had courts that favor women when a marriage does go south. In those day's I'll agree that life sucked for women, and not so much for men. There needed to be major reformations in women's rights and liberation....

Enter the 1960s and 1970s....

Most of us know the many stories of the 70's feminist who had "had enough!", set their bras on fire, started demanding fair and equal treatment and slowly legislation began to turn the tide for the American woman.

During the late 70's, all of the 80's, and a good part of the 90's, American women had the best of both worlds in my opinion. They had laws in place that REQUIRED fair and equal treatment in virtually all areas of commerce, trade, employment, residence, etc AND old laws were still in place that said that if all else fails it was a "mans place to take care of a woman if the marriage failed". It was at this point that women began to make more demands, be more disagreeable, and become more arrogant. Now I'm NOT saying that these characteristics weren't justified, nor am I judging or pointing the finger. However these attributes DID make marriages fall apart at record rates, and when they did, the MAN paid out the nose...

It was a win-win for women! However, then something happened, with great freedom comes great responsibility. When my father and mother split when I was 4 (1985), mom got custody... hands down. She didn't even have to try. Dad paid child support. Now my mother is a good woman, she's made some mistakes that I won't go into here, but all told I feel blessed to have had her for a mother. However by the time I was a late teenager in the late 90's I began to see more and more stories of MEN gaining custody.

Case in point, my mother's late husband (the one who died in January) had a daughter who was about my age. When mom met Benny (her late husband) Benny was in the process of calling it quits with his wife who was the mother of their child.

Benny got custody in a walk!

HUH??? But wait... THIS NEVER HAPPENS... does it? Had to be a legal fluke right?

Nope, Benny had a brother who separated form his wife a few years later and guess what... HE GOT CUSTODY OF HIS KIDS!

More and more in my life from the late 90's onward I began to hear stories of men gaining custody of their children....

Why???

The answer was clear when you look at the entire story. During the last 30 years, many women didn't realize that they have to act like decent people. They just can't run around all wild and free without consequences. They wanted to play in a "man's world" and they got it! Many of them did just fine and became fine respectable women, but every once in a while, you find one that was just sorry has hell and even the courts agreed that it's for the best if dad takes the kids.

Sometimes the dad is also sorry as hell, and that's when the state steps in and we have record number of children under the care of the state than ever before.

Courts are realizing that women can indeed make it. Those who refuse are generally just regarded as sorry. Normally these days the only time alimony is awarded is if there is a LARGE difference in the amount of pay that the husband and wife make. Such as he makes 100k per year and she's a homemaker. Often times alimony isn't awarded unless the marriage is long standing, as in over 10 years. Even when it is, it's often a very small marginal amount for a fixed number of years. I recall one example someone told me, he had to pay his ex $200 per month for 2 years, after than he's home free. The reason for this was "to give the woman time to get on her feet".

In the current day, it is not unheard of for the man to win alimony. While still unlikely, as women begin making more and more money outside of the home, many courts are awarding it in some circumstances.

I believe it's getting better. And I believe a lot of it is reasonable people understand that both women and men have pretty much the same potential in these days. Courts are starting to realize that women can indeed be vindictive, and in many cases men have gotten the short end of the stick in many classic divorce proceedings. It's also a matter of logic, if the system makes involvement with a woman a VERY risky matter, then men will avoid it, and the system of society will break down. I believe we are seeing a lot of that sentiment in current affairs with record numbers of men avoiding marriage all together, in addition with more and more men realizing that "they just don't like women", and claiming to be at least bisexual, and having romantic relationships with other (perhaps feminine) men because frankly there is little LEGAL risk in these matters.

Further, as a fun side note: It will be interesting to see how our American family law system handles homosexual divorce, when it's two men or two women splitting.... who gets the house?

We still have a way to go though, there is still somewhat of a pay gap between men and women in some industries. But women are afforded better health care than men generally. Health insurance is less expensive for women... which is interesting because they visit the doctor more. Maybe it's because men still don't live as long so we don't pay in as much?? Car insurance is cheaper for women, which also baffles me as I see idiot women drivers all the time! Many times, when I spot a VERY aggressive driver on the road, it turns out to be a woman. And of course, though it is possible for a woman to loose in a divorce case... that woman has to be pretty damn bad.

And of course there is the media, and society in general which still views woman as the "fairer sex". Generally the media portrays women as smarter, more witty, and better at doing virtually anything, where as men are often viewed and stereotyped as bumbling buffons that can't add 2+2, chug beer, only care about sports, slobby, and of course are waaaaaaaaaay too shallow to even THINK about wearing anything resembling a SKIRT!

Wha.... where-a-skirt??? Naaww... I'MMA MAN!

I'd write more... but I have to go to work. *baaaaaaahhhh*
Skirt comes off... trousers go on, to deal with a store who doesn't know how to use a frying pan to grill a burger.

Just getting into the legal aspect. Both the US and the UK use a case law system, implying that jurispudence is more imoratnt than law. Such will have as result that in the UK verdicts from 1100 AD may be used and also laws from that time in present day cases. In Europe the system is mostly based on the law with jurispudence used to fill in the blancs.
As to divorce and getting custody, befor 1970 in Europe and also in the US women would get custody as such was dictated by law. Since 1970 men should be able to get custody as easy and basically the Judge will look as to with whom the kids will have the best chances. In europe the Judge will mostly grant either joint custody with the mther as primary custodian, only if it's proven that the mother is not capable of provoding the security needed for the kids, custody will be granted to the father. Recently Supreme Court in one of the Europen countries has even decided that illness - indifferent whether it's mental of physical - of the mother is no factor. I know a case where the mother was under influence of medication which will bring the woman to request for divorce (oncologists are aware of such). The supreme court decided again that illnesss and medication is of no importance. A member of the same court hadat just about the same time an article in the newspaper indicating that in respect of penal law the effects of medication would be taken into consideration and thus the penalisation could be lessend (lack of compos mentis).
Filing for divorce can be done in to ways, either together/joint or one of the partners can file for divorce thus starting a case based on contradiction. According to the ECHR, the single request is to be considered discriminatory. NB, 80% of the divorces are initiated by women (and 80% of which have regrets afterwards). If a man wants to dispute the divorce he will have to use the argument that the single request is discriminatory in order to be heard lateron in appeal and at the Supreme Court.
Back to the divorce law before 1970, the only reason for divorce at that time was aldutry. The argument would be used at all times even if such was not the case. After 1970 there was no reason needed. On the European continent primary custody is in general still granted to women in line with the law pre-1970.
As to allimony, also per country it's different, some have a period of 2 years, some of 12.

[Disaffected.citizen]

As unfair as the world is when it comes to men vs women disputes.... at the same time, nobody is twisting any man's arm into getting hitched.

...

Also, I do believe we should be careful when we generalize that all men are victims and all women are oppressors. I've seen quite a few testosterone charged asses out and about that when their wife eventually walked out and raked him over the coals.... he had it coming.

Teach your sons that yes women are people, and deserve to be respected as such, no you do not have to marry one or otherwise involve yourself with one, and finally, if you do [marry one], understand that should it go south, courts do tend to favor women.

...

Also, fun side note... before we hold men blameless in the woes of the world... recall that since I've started wearing skirts, virtually ALL resistance, drama, and other nasties I've encountered were started by other men! Women generally have had little issue with it, save for the occasional ultra religious ones. In fact, many women have smiled and complimented my looks. Men on the other hand... just snare and shake their head in disgust.

In fact, now that I think about it, outside of internet "faves" of other like minded fashion souls, I don't think I've EVER received positive feedback on my skirts from a single man... EVER.

Yep... men are their own worst enemy.

(N.b. selective quotes are to reduce the size of this post, not to detract from the original)

I do not disagree with you, Moonshadow; there are good and bad across society. I have had negative feedback from both men and women, I've also had positive affirmation from both; but all of it was quite long ago.

The point of my original post was that too often society is blind to the discrimination and prejudices faced by "white males". It is a hidden bias, too. And I know you understand all of this.

In many societies/countries, there is equality legislation (at various stages of development and evolution), for the protection of "minorities" or groups who were previously treated unfavourably. We all get the need for those protections. But equality flounders when society loses sight of the whole picture and can only see what the "rules" were put place for.

Personally, I have experienced the bias and discrimination; it started slowly, but hit like an avalanche! If I can prevent anyone else suffering the same, I will. I have seen male on female and female on male domestic violence; it is utterly, utterly destructive.

But the support available differs drastically; frankly, it is virtually nonexistent for men; and it doesn't help when the various support agencies for women continually ignore that men can be victims, and women, too, can be perpetrators. The only context in which they seem to acknowledge these two are within homosexual relationships (i.e. male on male / female on female domestic violence). The result is that most enforcement thus assumes (through social conditioning) that the victim is female and perpetrator male - and that is the starting point for investigation.

All of the above being said, I have a volunteer/workplace situation at present where a 26yo man is manager, and the majority of long term workers are older (few are under 50) and female. He is thoroughly repugnant and destructive (a spoiled and selfish brat); yet his direct line manager can neither see the faults, nor put in place effective performance management (frankly, both are beyond her capabilities). I could write extensively on this, but the point here is that I agree that there are some men who give the majority a bad name.

How do we resolve this problem? I wish I could say, but better information (more accurate, less biased) wouldn't be a bad starting point.

[moonshadow]

How do we resolve this problem? I wish I could say, but better information (more accurate, less biased) wouldn't be a bad starting point.

I think we start by becoming informed, and respect that being in a romantic relationship carries with it a degree of responsibility. A basic answer to your question lies in my previous post, and really comes down to teaching our sons the ways of the world.

There are a number of helpful tips that may be useful should a man find himself with a bad woman. Thankfully these days seems everyone has a smart phone capable of recording video and audio. So if trouble breaks out... record everything!

Don't tolerate an abusive relationship. GET OUT. Don't expect the system to come to your aid, LEAVE. It's better to pay a little alimony and take a hit to your ego than to further stay in an abusive relationship.

Another big problem is not enough men seek help. It is drilled in their head that they can't "call themselves a man" if they are beaten by a girl. What was that part about men being their own worst enemy??? Men need to let go of that foolish pride and testosterone driven macho crap.

[Disaffected.citizen]

How do we resolve this problem? I wish I could say, but better information (more accurate, less biased) wouldn't be a bad starting point.

I think we start by becoming informed, and respect that being in a romantic relationship carries with it a degree of responsibility. A basic answer to your question lies in my previous post, and really comes down to teaching our sons the ways of the world.

And our daughters, although it is obviously not as simple as that.

There are a number of helpful tips that may be useful should a man find himself with a bad woman. Thankfully these days seems everyone has a smart phone capable of recording video and audio. So if trouble breaks out... record everything!

This is rarely achievable. Often, abusers restrict access to these items. Sometimes they are just not to hand. And abusers are exceptionally devious by nature; akin to "Chinese water torture" - drip, drip, drip...

Don't tolerate an abusive relationship. GET OUT. Don't expect the system to come to your aid, LEAVE. It's better to pay a little alimony and take a hit to your ego than to further stay in an abusive relationship.

Again, not always as easy as it seems. Narcissistic psychological abuse twists the perspective of the victim. Isolation is a tool of the abuser, too.

Another big problem is not enough men seek help. It is drilled in their head that they can't "call themselves a man" if they are beaten by a girl. What was that part about men being their own worst enemy??? Men need to let go of that foolish pride and testosterone driven macho crap.

Agreed, but we have a chicken and egg situation here. Men don't seek help, often because it isn't available; and help often isn't available because there's no demand for it!

But, when help is sought, and a victim is shown the door with a handful of leaflets, hidden amongst which is just one number for a part-time helpline, it isn't exactly going to be easy. And these victims are often not best placed to help themselves at the time they most need the strength.

Then there is the institutional and socially conditioned response to "man up" and "take it on the chin".

So, the biggest weapon in our arsenal in to spread the information.

[Sinned]

Having 3 boys and 1 girl as offspring my experience is that the daughters-in-law have been much worse than the single son-in-law. All three have caused us problems and some pain. They have been much more vindictive and concerned about their own situation to the detriment of their partners. So in essence I agree with what you are saying.

[Gusto10]

Another big problem is not enough men seek help. It is drilled in their head that they can't "call themselves a man" if they are beaten by a girl. What was that part about men being their own worst enemy??? Men need to let go of that foolish pride and testosterone driven macho crap.

Help is available but provided by women

[crfriend]

Help is available but provided by women

Which, in this context, can actually be worse than no help at all. Let's face it, if a guy is being abused -- especially psychologically -- by a woman there's not going to be all that much trust for the gender that's "providing help"; the guy is going to be entirely gun-shy about getting betrayed.

[Gusto10]

Help is available but provided by women

Which, in this context, can actually be worse than no help at all. Let's face it, if a guy is being abused -- especially psychologically -- by a woman there's not going to be all that much trust for the gender that's "providing help"; the guy is going to be entirely gun-shy about getting betrayed.

So rwell said, best help is with dear friends and a good diner

[Disaffected.citizen]

Help is available but provided by women

Which, in this context, can actually be worse than no help at all. Let's face it, if a guy is being abused -- especially psychologically -- by a woman there's not going to be all that much trust for the gender that's "providing help"; the guy is going to be entirely gun-shy about getting betrayed.

Spot on; and when there are few, to no, dedicated and specialist lines of support offered to males by males, to where do they turn?

• Their general medical practitioner, to whom it is likely the problem will be identified as anxiety and depression; unless there is an openly physical manifestation of the abuse, which is, more likely to be, explained away as some trivial accident. They are simply not trained to be aware of the signs of domestic violence and abuse (DVA) by female on male?
  
  Or to the law enforcement agencies, manned by "alphas" with scant training in soft skills, whose likely response is to "man up"? Those very same agencies are likely respond to male on female DVA with "necessary" force to protect the victim.

None of the above is to detract from the fact that female victims of DVA deserve help, when in need. There is no misogynist agenda here; merely an egalitarian principle to be extrapolated.

As Moonshadow identifies, men are their own worst enemies in this regard. But why?

• Social conditioning? Yes
  Tribal mentality? Yes
  Organisation? Yes

When it was genuinely required, the feminist lobby organised itself into a very effective campaign. That campaign has evolved and, in some arenas, morphed into a misandrist lobby; and a covert one at that, disguised under the original feminist umbrella.

It is absolutely necessary to call them out on equality, not by denigrating the origin of their cause, but by transposing gender neutral terms for the biased terms within their propaganda.

Erin Pizzey founded the first UK refuge. She has evolved her campaign with a new "Honest Ribbon" organisation to end DVA against all; it seems, prima facie, genuine. She has recognised that the DVA problem is gender-free (within the UK and "western developed" countries); whereas her original organisation, and similar, seems completely focussed on perpetuating the myth that it is a misogynist problem.

When I posted the original article, as far as I was concerned, it had absolutely nothing to do with men in skirts. I was wrong; there are parallels. The discussion threads here are for egalitarian rights; not just for legal rights, but for perceived social rights. No, the world doesn't fall in when you "buck the trend", but standing out from the crowd definitely creates a perception of vulnerability. By doing so, we can somewhat empathise with the sole "coloured person" amongst a crowd of Caucasians (although we blend rather better); it is the crowd who seem most fearful of "the odd one".

We are a supportive community. Do we have the fortitude to call out other areas of discrimination?