Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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moonshadow
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:After all, look at the state of technology in the 1960s and look where it is today. If the United States can't even get into low-Earth-orbit with all the modern technology we have at our disposal now, how in Creation could we have in 1969?
Politics... it's amazing what can be done... or undone.. in the name of politics...
In the 60's it was all about the space race. We had to beat the communist to the moon. We bet the farm to accomplish this.

Fast forward to the present day....
... and well.... lets build a wall... :roll: 'cause God said so.... :eye:

It's almost like the cold war was a war on who had the best scientist on payroll...

Our present conflicts are all about who has the most powerful God...
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by moonshadow »

You know... this post got me to thinking...

We need a new hippie movement here! The 60's sounded like quite a time to be alive. We have the foundation set for an awesome new "60's" era! Now women and minorities have accomplished so much since then. Men can wear skirts (lets face it... it wouldn't have gone over well 50 years ago). We are PRIMED for a summer of love!

Freedom's are everywhere if we'd just embrace it...

But alas... people in my generation and younger are just so damned BORING now... All they do is play on their phones! *baaaaahhh!*

Come on every guy... grab a girl. Everywhere around the world...

They said it doesn't matter what you wear.... Who's with me?


Gonna be the 60's on Pandora today! 8)
-Andrea
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crfriend
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:It's almost like the cold war was a war on who had the best scientist on payroll...
It wasn't?

Let's see. The Russians caught the USA sound asleep at the switch with Sputnik, proving in a New York Minute that Omaha was just as certainly on the front line as Alaska. The USA needed to do something *BIG* to counter that in the popular press and then took several months to launch its first artificial satellite following quite the string of high-profile launch failures (To be honest, not a lot is known about the launch-efficacy of the early Soviet designs). Fast-forward a decade: the USA in a full-court-press managed to land men on the moon and then lost interest; the Soviets, and later on the Russians, colonised low-Earth-orbit. The USA got to the moon and back on the back of Operation Paperclip; the Russians did it the old fashioned way, although with the help of some other purloined Germans.

Who really won the "Space Race"? Ditto, for that matter, the Cold War.
Our present conflicts are all about who has the most powerful God...
We might as well as be fighting about who has the bigger wang [0][1], save that the latter datum on non-deities can be proved up by simple and reproducible measurements.


[0]"My god has a bigger dick than your god." -- George Carlin
[1]Wang VS-100. This machine used to belong to the City of Providence Police Department and was for years the biggest Wang in the State of Rhode Island. It may still be for all I know. It lived for a while with my group but better fit RICM's collection so we transferred it to them.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Gusto10 »

having skimmed through the interpretations of Deut 22.5, one has te bear a number of things in mind. The history of the thought, the timeframe.
Timeframe, the Roman empire was folding, the western part at it's end, the eastern part was till in existance. Due to the falling apart of the Roman empire (approx 300 AD, the same period as the Bible was we know it now was written), people needed a new gouverning body, which was provided by the clergy as they could read and interpret writing. Roman law contained similar regulations as Deut 22.5. the reason was the same as in the Thora. Near the High temple of Jeruzalem as on the Via Appia people would be available for satistaction of others. They would dress as member of the other gender. In addition in the Roman empire, women would not be prosecuted, hence male criminals would dress as women to evade prosecution. When the Church took over social life they incorporated such in the bible. Later on the church which was acting also as psychological counsel incorporated psychiatrists as Binet and Jung (the lining of their pockets increased as they become more involved with the church) to incorporate the ideas of the church in psychology, hence people dressing as the other sex were sexual deviant. Now such thought has been abolished in present psychology. One of the signs that such is the case is the old parisian rule that women weren not allowed to wear trousers, a rule which was only deregulised in 2010 or so.
If one looks at it further one sees an interesting thing, Roman law came via Greece from the old Israel. The israelists came from Egypt. Around 0 AD, a number of Roman emperors haf fancied Cleopatre, Queen of Egypt. Hence, the basis of our present law system might be found in the old Egypt.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by hoborob »

Sorry Gusto but no matter what your argument is in your post your reasoning is totally invalid. The book of Deuteronomy was written long before the Roman Empire came into existence, it was written about the time that the Exodus from Egypt was completed, somewhere in the range of 1500-1000 BC. In fact the last book that is in the Bible was written down long before 300AD. The writers of the books that are in the bible all died before 100AD and most had died before 60AD.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by r.m.anderson »

moonshadow wrote:
crfriend wrote:After all, look at the state of technology in the 1960s and look where it is today. If the United States can't even get into low-Earth-orbit with all the modern technology we have at our disposal now, how in Creation could we have in 1969?
Politics... it's amazing what can be done... or undone.. in the name of politics...
In the 60's it was all about the space race. We had to beat the communist to the moon. We bet the farm to accomplish this.

Fast forward to the present day....
... and well.... lets build a wall... :roll: 'cause God said so.... :eye:

It's almost like the cold war was a war on who had the best scientist on payroll...

Our present conflicts are all about who has the most powerful God...
Fast forward to the present day....
... and well.... lets build a wall... :roll: 'cause God said so.... :eye:


Remember what happened to the WALLS OF JERICHO !!!!!
And then President Reagan said to "TEAR DOWN THIS WALL" !

I don't think I need to go further !
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by john62 »

Most experts think that the Old Testament was written down about 800BC, until then it was an oral tradition.

John
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Gusto10 »

hoborob wrote:Sorry Gusto but no matter what your argument is in your post your reasoning is totally invalid. The book of Deuteronomy was written long before the Roman Empire came into existence, it was written about the time that the Exodus from Egypt was completed, somewhere in the range of 1500-1000 BC. In fact the last book that is in the Bible was written down long before 300AD. The writers of the books that are in the bible all died before 100AD and most had died before 60AD.
Sorry, I do think you are mixing things. The Deathsea scrolls to which you might refer were written in the period mentiond by you. The Bible was compiled from amongst others the Deadsea scrolls, the Thora, etc. in approx 300 AD. Not all available books were included.
Another reasons why in my humbel opinion Deutrimonium is actually derived from the civil law at that time is also that e.g. it regulates the civil liability of ones premisses. Also like the Koran it states that she who commits adultry should be stoned to death (Pure penal law). The way women have to adjust their headscarfs, etc. It's always wise to read the full text instead of only fragments. Roman Law was part of my studies. The Roman society wasn't monotheistic at first, it became such only in the third and fourth century. Crusades followed now know as Jihad.
Eventhough you didn't ask, women were not persucuted as the were under the res mancipi and thus the Pater Familias had to correct them. The Pater Familias would be accountable for whom he was responsible.
At that time - 350 AD - the clergy wasn't just into the holy word, they were also the laywers (especially Jezuits), the academics, the consultants of kings (Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal-Duke of Richelieu as exemple) the ones who regulated society.
Another things you might not have realised, the Bible NT starts with that the Israelist had fallen from grace with the lord and the Christians were the new chosen. In the Coran is starts with stating that the Christians had fallen from the grace of the Lord and that the Islamist were the new chosen. Hence the religions are intertwined, the problems forthcoming lies with the interpretation os someones words whom we have never met and who can't defend himself.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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Sorry Gusto10, but you seem to be on a different planet or dimension to the rest of us.

http://www.biblica.com/en-us/bible/bibl ... e-written/

"The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago. So let's start at the beginning of this fascinating story.

The first five books of the Bible are attributed to Moses and are commonly called the Pentateuch (literally "five scrolls").

Moses lived between 1500 and 1300 BC, though he recounts events in the first eleven chapters of the Bible that occurred long before his time (such as the creation and the flood).

These earliest accounts were handed on from generation to generation in songs, narratives, and poetry.

In those early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts with great detail and accuracy.

The earliest writing began when symbols were scratched or pressed on clay tablets. The Egyptians refined this technique and developed an early form of writing known as hieroglyphics. The Bible tells us that Moses was "educated in all the learning of the Egyptians", so he would have been familiar with the major writing systems of his time. We also read that God gave Moses "two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God"(Exodus 31:18). All this leads to the conclusion that the earliest writings in the Bible were set down around 1400 BC.

The writings of the thirty or so other contributors to the Old Testament span a thousand years! They recount the times and messages from Moses' successor, Joshua, to the last of the Old Testament prophets, Malachi, who wrote his little tract around 450 BC."


There are schools of thought that the Pentateuch was actually dictated to Moses by God himself. Jesus himself quoted several times from the OT and alluded to prophecies as well. How could he do that from something that wasn't written yet?

The OT and the Dead Sea Scrolls are completely different - a bit like comparing cats with dogs and to muddy the comparisons further is a complete red herring in this context. The Scrolls are religious works divided into Biblical, scriptural parts of the Hebrew Bible and translations of scripture into Aramaic and Greek, and non-Biblical compositions, documents, letters, scribal exercises and non-identifiable texts.

At least try and get some facts right and what is "Deutrimonium" - new element in the Periodic Table? Can you not even spell Deuteronomy right?
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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Sinned wrote:Sorry Gusto10, but you seem to be on a different planet or dimension to the rest of us.
Well Sinned, it's only the Atlantic which needs to be brigded. But indeed the old and new world do use different perspectives.
Deutronomium is the latin version of Deutronomy.
I shall refrain from further debating matters of which I've not been part knowing that the books have been re-written in order to fit the needs. Quoting only one source and taking such for granted is not my way of doing things.
Yes, I do like to trigger others with remarks that make them wonder.
But as comparisson:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
It's to bad that you can't read my native language, otherwise you would have found the information quit interresting I guess, as it's more extensive that the English version.

Have Fun.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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[quote="Sinned"]Sorry Gusto10, but you seem to be on a different planet or dimension to the rest of us.

http://www.biblica.com/en-us/bible/bibl ... e-written/

P.s.
Sinned, if you were living nearby, I would lend you the following books to start of with:
- History of God by Karin Armstrong,
-psychology and Religous Truth by T.H. Hughes
- Religoin in Human experience by J.R. Everett
- Religion, It's functions in Human life.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Gusto10 wrote:It's to bad that you can't read my native language, otherwise you would have found the information quit interresting I guess, as it's more extensive that the English version.
Have Fun.


Just what is your native language??? Inquiring minds want to know!!

Fred :kiltdance:
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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Gusto I only quoted one reference as I'd be here all day giving a full list. But it doesn't matter what language you use if the OT was penned over 1000 years ago give or take a few hundred years then it was penned over 1000 years ago and not in the years AD as you seem to insinuate. I can use google to see that deuteronomium ( you don't seem to be able to spell that either ) is the Latin version of Deuteronomy but you seem to use the less familiar version since you seem fixated by the Roman period. I will look up as best as I am able the sources that you cite as I do have an open mind.

Anyway I'm going no further as one of our rules is not to get into any flame wars about guns, politics and religion and we are not going to convince either of us that we are wrong. Closes mouth, shuts up and logs out before either UA or Carl intervenes.

UA or Carl, if I respond to this ever again then please, metaphorically speaking, shoot me.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

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Gentlemen, the story of our various religions is a fascinating one indeed, but I think it's fair enough to say that when it comes to understanding religious history, we are somewhat at the mercy of the interpreters, scholars, and historians. Even then, logic would indicate that we simply can not have the full picture. There are so many written works from biblical era that never made it to the standard issue Holy Bible of the modern world.

I myself and not an expert on biblical history, but I have to admit Gusto, a lot of what you write is somewhat news to me. I'm not refuting it, or taking sides, I'm just saying I've never heard of a lot of it. It is interesting to consider, and I have to admit, has me hitting the books, which is, I suppose what good debate and discussion is meant to do: engage deeper thought and study.
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Re: Interesting..... (calling the biblical experts)

Post by Gusto10 »

moonshadow wrote:Gentlemen, the story of our various religions is a fascinating one indeed, but I think it's fair enough to say that when it comes to understanding religious history, we are somewhat at the mercy of the interpreters, scholars, and historians. Even then, logic would indicate that we simply can not have the full picture. There are so many written works from biblical era that never made it to the standard issue Holy Bible of the modern world.

I myself and not an expert on biblical history, but I have to admit Gusto, a lot of what you write is somewhat news to me. I'm not refuting it, or taking sides, I'm just saying I've never heard of a lot of it. It is interesting to consider, and I have to admit, has me hitting the books, which is, I suppose what good debate and discussion is meant to do: engage deeper thought and study.
your comment is much appreciated.
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