Political Chatter

[skirtedMarine]

Amazing posts, guys. I don't know where you find so much time to spend at your computers.

After the Brexit vote there's so much political chatter going on now all over Europe that I just switch off. It has ruined the normally interesting news-related programs.

With such a dull wet 'Summer' going on here, gardening occupies most of our leisure time and that means time out in the fresh air away from computers

Tom

Thanks Tom , I Understand its "Independence Day" there, and We'd probably both rather watch a couple of hot girls getting it on! And gardening comes in as s close second. .. I love and admire your perspective!

[moonshadow]

Well, we can agree to disagree, It has been a "Hoot", And Its a shame We only have a choice between the "Lesser" of two evils, try to google "Clinton body count" , put on a big boy skirt, and remember Our guys at Benghazi.

On the lesser of two evil issue... now there I agree with you 100%. I'm not overly impressed with either side.

Anyway, good discussion skirtedMarine. I hope you know I wasn't trying to poke anyone in the eye or what have you. I simply wanted to argue the point that many issues that plague our nation aren't white or black, they are many shades of gray, and it's going to take more than memes or "bumper sticker" philosophy to remedy. Trying to make a system work for 300,000,000 people isn't easy.

I hadn't really been following this thread closely, but I got a little irked when Caultron got called out as being ignorant. Caultron and I haven't agreed on everything, and we've engaged in some friendly debates before, but in all fairness while we all may harbor a little ignorance regarding politics, I do think most of us here at the cafe are generally more enlightened than your average American voter, and yes those thoughtful enlightened ones include people like you skirtedMarine, and Bob.

Speaking of Bob,

Entire denominations have fabricated their own religion and pasted on a veneer of scripture. As Paul said of the Jews, circumcision is a matter of the heart, not of a cutting in the flesh done with hands. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, without regard to public show. The same is true of Christians, of course. Because real saving faith is a gift of God, not on account of anything man does or can do, those who are not, or not yet, called can in no wise grasp the actual content of scripture. Arguing with the spiritually blind is a fool's errand. As someone else once said, "Trying to teach a pig to sing only wasted your time and annoys the pig".

The church has been endowed since the beginning with brilliant, blessed teachers and apologists. It has also been plagued with heresy and error. The Bible tells us that the world is in a fallen, corrupt state, and that the ruler on earth right now is Satan, the father of lies. What better can he do than convince people, as he did in the beginning, that God didn't really say what he said, or that if he did say it, that it was for a different time and place.

"By their fruit we know them". When you see someone ranting and raving, with their hand held out, promising a blessing for money, or calling curses down on the heads of people you can be sure that you are not listening to a Christian. The fruits of the Spirit are clearly enunciated. Where the fruit is,lacking, so is the Spirit.

Bob, it's clear that your adherence and understanding of the Christian faith is fair and reasonable. However it seems that an increasing percentage of those who claim to be Christian follow the tenets that are underlined above. So many Christians I know, family, friends, colleagues, etc seem to fall under that category. Those are the people that worry me, those are the people who want to make life for people like me impossible. They want to force my hand into conversion by denying me the right to participate in society. Those are the ones that tried to get me fired. Those are the ones that would love to beat the sh!t out of me even for using the men's room. Those are the ones that think someone like me has no right to buy a gallon of fuel or groceries unless I change my "wicked ways".

And I believe those are the ones, who harbor hate in their heart that are the real reason our nation and world is falling into a corrupt state.

[skirtedMarine]

Moon, I am Christian, I love you like a brother, and I am sure that We both hope for the healing of Our Nation, We both dispise the Racial divide, I live in Hawaii, where I am a minority, (I know all about Racism ) And I' ve seen it played as tool to the sheep, BO got elected twice!

[Kirbstone]

Safely away from computers or political chatter I just spend a little time looking at this and think that only 16 years ago all this was just a large open fallow grass field sold to us at auction in August 2000, with a couple of houses visible in the distance.

Very therapeutic

Tom

[crfriend]

Safely away from computers or political chatter I just spend a little time looking at this and think that only 16 years ago all this was just a large open fallow grass field sold to us at auction in August 2000, with a couple of houses visible in the distance.

Do you have room in your house and hearts for a boarder? Of course that means I'd have to get there and find a job...

[skirtedMarine]

I forgot to mention, I got Bobs back, even though He's a former " squid"! Definition;
A sea creature that frims and frolics around and shits on Marine life.

[skirtedMarine]

Safely away from computers or political chatter I just spend a little time looking at this and think that only 16 years ago all this was just a large open fallow grass field sold to us at auction in August 2000, with a couple of houses visible in the distance.

Very therapeutic

Tom

Wow! Good for You Thomas!

[moonshadow]

Moon, I am Christian, I love you like a brother

Then you were obviously paying attention to the teachings of Jesus. My feelings towards you, Bob, and everyone else are generally mutual. I'd gladly do anything I could for any one of you all. We are indeed brothers, brothers of the human race, and I like to think the overall message of Christianity and Jesus is love and compassion for one another...

I am sure that We both hope for the healing of Our Nation

Indeed! And I'd gladly do anything I could to that end.

[Kirbstone]

Oh, and Bob's yer-uncle, Scott, Squid or no!

We'd love to see you this side of the geo-political 'pond', Carl, but bear in mind that we employ our Benjy, here to repel boarders!

And like Moon, the 'rig' behind the camera, & no electrical wires!

Tom

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Sorry to interrupt your Kumbaya moment, but I have to call BS.

SkirtedMarine, none of your political rants have provided any facts, statistics or recognized experts; like Moonshadow said earlier, they were nothing but your unsupported opinions. When Caultron countered your opinions with well-founded arguments that included facts, statistics and cited experts you dismissed his post as "unimaginable ignorance" ... Let me just point out that you misspelled ignorance and leave it to the other members of the forum to decide who was demonstrating ignorance.

Moonshadow, where did SkirtedMarine show how knowledgeable he is? I haven't seen it.

For that matter, when Bob doubled down on SkirtedMarine's blathering, where did he show his Christianity?

As both my pastor and my therapist have said one of the most important elements of Christianity is inclusiveness and acceptance. Where are those qualities demonstrated in the political positions Bobmoore and SkirtedMarine have expressed?

Mooshadow I spent most of my afternoon providing solutions and reasoning for each of the issues you raised and I have to say that as one of our English friends said, I wasted a beautiful sunny day because 1) for some unknown reason I had gotten kicked off of the forum before I could submit it and 2) it doesn't look like you were terribly interested in solutions you just wanted to someone to engage with you. So instead of spending my evening recreating what the computer gobbled, I'm going to do my laundry and if I get ambitious, go for a bicycle ride. (We have very late sunsets in Oregon.)

[skirtedMarine]

Sorry to interrupt your Kumbaya moment, but I have to call BS.

SkirtedMarine, none of your political rants have provided any facts, statistics or recognized experts; like Moonshadow said earlier, they were nothing but your unsupported opinions. When Caultron countered your opinions with well-founded arguments that included facts, statistics and cited experts you dismissed his post as "unimaginable ignorance" ... Let me just point out that you misspelled ignorance and leave it to the other members of the forum to decide who was demonstrating ignorance.

Moonshadow, where did SkirtedMarine show how knowledgeable he is? I haven't seen it.

For that matter, when Bob doubled down on SkirtedMarine's blathering, where did he show his Christianity?

As both my pastor and my therapist have said one of the most important elements of Christianity is inclusiveness and acceptance. Where are those qualities demonstrated in the political positions Bobmoore and SkirtedMarine have expressed?

Mooshadow I spent most of my afternoon providing solutions and reasoning for each of the issues you raised and I have to say that as one of our English friends said, I wasted a beautiful sunny day because 1) for some unknown reason I had gotten kicked off of the forum before I could submit it and 2) it doesn't look like you were terribly interested in solutions you just wanted to someone to engage with you. So instead of spending my evening recreating what the computer gobbled, I'm going to do my laundry and if I get ambitious, go for a bicycle ride. (We have very late sunsets in Oregon.)

Thanks for pitching in, I'm sorry you need both a Pastor snd a Tharapist, God is not the author of confusion, Anger, or hate.
Aloha,
Scott

[moonshadow]

Come on Dave... we're just trying to be polite and gentlemanly towards one another. skirtedMarine and I didn't really agree on much other than our common sentiment that we want what's best for our nation. I'm sure all our hearts are in the right place.

Don't take this stuff so personally. It's just politics... nothing that any of us say here is going to change anything anyway. The powers that be are going to do what they are going to do regardless of what I, skirtedMarine, Bob, Dillon, Carl, Caultron, you, or anyone else say about it. And the biggest reason for that is because America... all 300 million of us don't really know what the hell we want, and nobody really knows what to do. As I said in a reply to SM, these are not "black and white" issues, they are many shades of gray, and it will require solutions based on compromise, rationality, compassion, and fairness. It will not be to everyone's liking, and no answer is going to be perfect and without fault.

But it starts with thoughtful polite conversation.

2) it doesn't look like you were terribly interested in solutions you just wanted to someone to engage with you.

Wrong and right
I am interested in solutions and hearing people's ideas. Where I will then engage with them in various hypothetical situations to test their statements and see if they hold water.

Often times my biggest goal in political discussions is to demonstrate that the answers aren't always straight forward and easy. Almost every solution has non-desirable side effects. This is why I tend to come off as a "fence sitter", or middle of the road. I am a man of compromise, and often times both the far right and the far left want no part of that.

Regarding Bob, I thought his comments regarding his faith were very thoughtful. And that's coming from a Wiccan. While theologically Bob and I may differ, I can find no malice in his statement.

I do hope you find the motivation to post a few of your thoughts, as I do value your opinion and as I've read other post you have authored have found you too be thoughtful, intelligent, and of sound mind. All I ask is don't be upset, or take it personally if I challenge a view with a "real world hypothetical".. a "what if" if you will, and the idea hits a snag. That's part of the critical thinking process. These are the same thoughts that run through my head. Many times I thought I hatched a good idea only to test it in my head and suddenly ... "ahh.. no that won't work".

Blessed Be my friends!

-Moon

[skirtedMarine]

Come on Dave... we're just trying to be polite and gentlemanly towards one another. skirtedMarine and I didn't really agree on much other than our common sentiment that we want what's best for our nation. I'm sure all our hearts are in the right place.

Don't take this stuff so personally. It's just politics... nothing that any of us say here is going to change anything anyway. The powers that be are going to do what they are going to do regardless of what I, skirtedMarine, Bob, Dillon, Carl, Caultron, you, or anyone else say about it. And the biggest reason for that is because America... all 300 million of us don't really know what the hell we want, and nobody really knows what to do. As I said in a reply to SM, these are not "black and white" issues, they are many shades of gray, and it will require solutions based on compromise, rationality, compassion, and fairness. It will not be to everyone's liking, and no answer is going to be perfect and without fault.

But it starts with thoughtful polite conversation.

2) it doesn't look like you were terribly interested in solutions you just wanted to someone to engage with you.

Wrong and right
I am interested in solutions and hearing people's ideas. Where I will then engage with them in various hypothetical situations to test their statements and see if they hold water.

Often times my biggest goal in political discussions is to demonstrate that the answers aren't always straight forward and easy. Almost every solution has non-desirable side effects. This is why I tend to come off as a "fence sitter", or middle of the road. I am a man of compromise, and often times both the far right and the far left want no part of that.

Regarding Bob, I thought his comments regarding his faith were very thoughtful. And that's coming from a Wiccan. While theologically Bob and I may differ, I can find no malice in his statement.

I do hope you find the motivation to post a few of your thoughts, as I do value your opinion and as I've read other post you have authored have found you too be thoughtful, intelligent, and of sound mind. All I ask is don't be upset, or take it personally if I challenge a view with a "real world hypothetical".. a "what if" if you will, and the idea hits a snag. That's part of the critical thinking process. These are the same thoughts that run through my head. Many times I thought I hatched a good idea only to test it in my head and suddenly ... "ahh.. no that won't work".

Blessed Be my friends!

-Moon

Blessed be the peace makers, much aloha,
Scott

[dillon]

I love your well stated Indoctrinated mental masterbation Carl,
Stand for something! Mercy, Theres Terrorists creaping across Our boarders! And all the left can exclaim is that WE need more gun control!

Maybe you'd enlighten us as to which "terrorists" are "creaping across Our boarders". Would those be the ones mowing your lawn? Cleaning your hotel room? Nailing shingles on your roof? Picking the blueberries that ended up in your waffle? Loading the hogs that became your sausage and ham? Because I haven't heard of any of those folks committing acts of terrorism. Or maybe it was Tim McVeigh, the Bronze Star awardee who murdered 168 people with a truck bomb in Oklahoma City, including WWII vets in a social security office and toddlers in a day care center...oh, but wait, he was a born and bred white-boy 'Murican. Guess that doesn't count as terrorism unless it was someone with brown skin and an accent...

Please, if you're going to make silly, racist statements, just please try to put a fact or two behind them...

Honestly, if not for your posts about skirts, I'd be thinking you are just someone's alternate account, hoaxing us with an exaggerated parody of an American conservative. But since I'm about 51% sure you exist, all I can do is sadly shake my head.

Thanks for your passion Dillon, I'm not clear on your point, Because I believe in Our National Sovereignty You want to label me a racist? Ive had enough of the race card with the obama administration, try to come to terms with your "hate issue" . I'm sure there are alot of things we could agree on! No one mows my lawn, My sausage is American made, some sausage makers are white, Some electricians are brown, They are Americans,
Im still missing your point, but thanks for your ..... racial input!
You liberals seem to have a twisted perspective!
It helps me to realise the .... simplistic tendency of the other side.
Thanks Dillon,
You continue to make my point.
Scott
Scott

I find your remarks objectionable because they lack any citation of evidence or data to support them. You stated that the people coming across our BORDERS (note correct spelling; there is a spellcheck on this site, btw, in case you wondered what the squiggly lines under your posts meant) are terrorists. You've called eleven million people living here illegally/undocumented, whatever term you want...and btw, no one uses the term Undocumented Citizen; it doesn't make sense since US citizens are not legally required to have citizenship documents; you may be thinking of the LEGAL term Undocumented Worker used by ICE in immigrant employment cases...so I'm challenging you to prove it. If one out of every twenty-nine US residents (US pop 319 million containing 11 million illegal immigrants) is a terrorist, as implied in your statement, SHOW THE PROOF. Also, you may believe in government by slogan (e.g. "Our National Sovereignty") but again, your slogans don't mean diddly-squat if you can't explain them in any sort of reality-based defense. I defy anyone to define an ACTUAL threat, without exaggerated rhetoric, to US sovereignty. You sound like someone who prefers fantasy to evidence, a Fox News junkie, maybe; facts only get in the way of image; innuendo is sufficient as long as it gets your blood boiling. God save us from that sort of government; fantasy sans evidence, is, IMO, what put us at war in Iraq. If you don't want to get called out as a dupe for conservative propaganda, then post something factual and support it.

The difference between us is that when I post an OPINION, and I do post many, I have the common decency to call it my opinion and not try to foist it on anyone as fact. My recommendation is that the next time you're inclined to point your finger and use the term "ignorence" (ignorance) you need to be looking in a mirror.

[crfriend]

[... T]here is a spellcheck on this site, btw, in case you wondered what the squiggly lines under your posts meant [...]

Actually, that's a client-side function, usually built into the browser one is using. The computational overhead of a server-side spell-checker and the possibility for unintentional corruption of posts there-from I find unacceptable.

On a more on-topic (if there is such a thing in "Off Topic") comment, if one out of 29 residents here was a terrorist the place would have boiled over long ago. The overwhelming majority of the people coming here are doing so in attempt to better their lives or simply flee war-zones and entirely likely fervently want to live a peaceful existence. There are the exceptions, of course, but the number of those is vanishingly small -- and that's why screening needs to be done diligently and intelligently.

[... N]o one uses the term Undocumented Citizen; it doesn't make sense since US citizens are not legally required to have citizenship documents [...]

True, "undocumented citizen" is nonsensical because one cannot be a citizen without proper documentation. However, the notion that US citizens are not legally required to have citizenship documents is not true. Try getting an above-board job without "papers". And to those who don't think that we carry government ID cards, may I remind you of the driver's license you carry in your wallet. Heck, sometimes one has to present his identity card just to buy a beer.

I defy anyone to define an ACTUAL threat, without exaggerated rhetoric, to US sovereignty.

This could happen in any number of ways, but violence isn't one of them. The government has vastly too much fire-power for that to happen. Where it could threaten sovereignty is at the ballot-box, but voting requires citizenship (if not intelligence). Our sovereignty is quite safe, if one considers the current form of government legitimate.