Our Environment!

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DALederle
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Our Environment!

Post by DALederle »

In the film "Avatar" the main theme of the film was what harm technology can do to our natural enviroment. Of course the movie took some things to exteme. Their Ewa was a tied in, with a computer like link to all living things, that we don't have (as far as I know). But we do have to learn to take care of the environment we live in.
Just for the record I don't beleive in Global Warming.
But I do beleive in clean air, thanks to my own breathing problems and the research I've done on the subject. My wife is the receptionist for my pulmonary care doctor's group and comes home every night to tell me they have a hard time fitting in all their new patients. And the doctors struggle to keep up with the work load. Most of these our people are my age (60+) i.e. elderly. But there are now more and more younger people also coming down with breathing problems. Since our breathing becomes worse with age, anyway, that doesn't bode well for the younger people.
We need to clean up our air and water for the sake of all of us on the spaceship Earth.
The poblem becomes what can be done and who wants to do it.
My wife and I recyle. We use cfl bulbs to cut down on electric use and run an electric lawn mower instead of a gas one. We shut things down when not in use and have seen a drop in our electric bill. This year we had new insulation blown into our attic and that has cut down on our heating/cooling bills.
We tend our garden, take care of our lawn and grow our own tomatos. As we age this has become just about all we can do.
But I look at our government and big business and wonder what they are really doing?
As an example; when the hydrogen fuel cell cars were first being delveloped they extrated hydrogen out of the atmosphere. But big oil lobbied congress and made sure that poduction models had to have hydrogen tanks for filling. In other words, you can't buy a car that runs for free. You have to keep fueling it.
How many other tecnologies are out there being kept under wraps?
DALederle
:shock:
Kris
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Re: Our Environment!

Post by Kris »

DALederle wrote: As an example; when the hydrogen fuel cell cars were first being delveloped they extrated hydrogen out of the atmosphere. But big oil lobbied congress and made sure that poduction models had to have hydrogen tanks for filling. In other words, you can't buy a car that runs for free. You have to keep fueling it.
How many other tecnologies are out there being kept under wraps?
DALederle
:shock:
As an engineer, I have to just shake my head and groan at this.

Free hydrogen is an extremely rare trace element of the atmosphere (about 0.00005%). There is simply not enough to build a car or anything else that extracts it and runs on it.

I was about to go off on a rant about the scientific illiteracy of the average American, and their infatuation with conspiracy theories, but I won't. (Well, I guess I just did, a little bit!)

Kris
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Re: Our Environment!

Post by crfriend »

DALederle wrote:[... We] have to learn to take care of the environment we live in.
If nothing else, we're stewards of it, and should tread as gently as possible for the time we're here.
DALederle wrote:Just for the record I don't beleive in Global Warming.
This is best looked at in context. The version that's all too frequently slung around is that the hand of man is causing the whole problem. There's also the school of though that we're merely still in the process of clawing our way out of the last Ice Age. Then there's the more nuanced approach that takes both into account.

Is the place warming up? I'd posit "yes". From the viewpoint of my pathetically short life, I've noticed weather patterns changing, and weather notebooks I've examined from localities near where I live indicate a clear trend. However, I'm not willing to cast human activity a the sole villain (if villainy it is) because shifts like these are evident in the fossil and ice records. That said, should we -- as a species -- try to slow its progress simply to save our hides so we don't wind up in the very large statistical bin labelled "extinct"? I'd posit "yes", but doubt that we can do enough -- fast enough -- to make much difference.

I try to walk gently on Mother Earth. I drive a car that gets 30 MPG, strive to reduce the amount of stuff I buy (and then toss into landfill or incinerate); we're trying to grow some of our own produce in our yard, and we're supporters of local agriculture that has a tiny carbon-footprint compared to flying produce and meat in from South America or even farther afield. I turned the soil in our garden by hand instead of roto-tilling it. It's a rear-guard action; every Hummer or other SUV I see on the road makes my actions seem futile or worse.
We use cfl bulbs to cut down on electric use and run an electric lawn mower instead of a gas one. We shut things down when not in use and have seen a drop in our electric bill. This year we had new insulation blown into our attic and that has cut down on our heating/cooling bills.
The insulation will help, but beware of tightening your home up so much that you have no air exchange, for down that path lies "sick building syndrome". Powering things off may save in the short term but cost more later on as things need to get replaced because of expansion/contraction cycles, and using an electric lawn-mower instead of a gas one merely relocates the emissions from the (admittedly low-efficiency) mower engine to a big old power plant possibly thousands of miles away and doesn't take into account the inevitable electrical losses involved in transmission (which escape as heat, mind you). And CFL bulbs contain mercury. It's a balancing act.
[W]hen the hydrogen fuel cell cars were first being delveloped they extrated hydrogen out of the atmosphere. But big oil lobbied congress and made sure that poduction models had to have hydrogen tanks for filling. In other words, you can't buy a car that runs for free. You have to keep fueling it.
How many other tecnologies are out there being kept under wraps?
This is conspiracy theory and nothing more. Whilst it's a known fact that Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe (it's the simplest -- there's a connection there), it's so rare at ground level on Earth that it's virtually non-existent -- it "floats" in the heavier Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere (that's why it makes a great buoyancy material for lighter-than-air craft, save for it's unfortunate reputation) and winds up at the fringes of space or merely gets blown away in the solar wind. (The second most common element is the universe is Helium -- for the same reason, it's the second simplest, and a byproduct of stellar fusion, just like everything heavier.)

Can we do better? Yes, I believe we can. Will we do better? Somehow I doubt it. Yes, I am a pessimist; but I'm a pessimist who wears skirts so I don't have to turn the air-conditioning on as early in the year as I otherwise would, nor keep it turned down as far as I'd have to if I wore trousers.
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Re: Our Environment!

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...and using an electric lawn-mower instead of a gas one merely relocates the emissions from the (admittedly low-efficiency) mower engine to a big old power plant possibly thousands of miles away and doesn't take into account the inevitable electrical losses involved in transmission (which escape as heat, mind you).
A very good post Carl.
I did want to comment on this one item about mowers (and by extension other gas powered lawn equipment, like blowers and trimmers).

Exchanging gas-powered mowers for electric (or better yet, human) powered mowers is a huge win for clean air and the environment.

It's not just that this equipment is low-efficiency (in terms of energy use), it's terribly polluting. (And by the way, if you look at the total energy cycle as you do by including electric transmission, you also have to include the production and distribution of the gasoline that the equipment uses, and gasoline spills.)

There's a lot out there, but here's one EPA report:
http://www.epa.gov/air/community/detail ... _info.html

Here are two statements from the report:

Pre-1997 lawn and garden equipment accounts for as much as 5% of the total man-made hydrocarbons that contribute to ozone formation.

The exchange of 1,000 gasoline-powered lawn mowers for electric mowers has the potential of reducing volatile organic compound (VOC) emissions by 9.8 tons per year, which is equivalent to removing 230 cars from the highways.

Kris
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Re: Our Environment!

Post by Brandy »

Powering things off may save in the short term but cost more later on as things need to get replaced because of expansion/contraction cycles, and using an electric lawn-mower instead of a gas one merely relocates the emissions from the (admittedly low-efficiency) mower engine to a big old power plant possibly thousands of miles away and doesn't take into account the inevitable electrical losses involved in transmission (which escape as heat, mind you). And CFL bulbs contain mercury. It's a balancing act.
This is called the "long tailpipe" and has been debated and looked at in detail. Short answer the electric motor is more effecient and per "job" uses less energy. So IF you get your energy from a coal fired power plant you are still using less energy and causing less pollution.

Here are a few links;
http://theeestory.com/topics/5607

http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/ ... _wheel.php

Web search "long tailpipe" you will find many more.

I also have solar electric panels on my house and drive an electric car, Toyota Rav4EV. About 64K electric miles and 32.6 mega watts hours generated.

-- Brandy
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crfriend
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Re: Our Environment!

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Kris wrote:The exchange of 1,000 gasoline-powered lawn mowers for electric mowers has the potential of reducing volatile organic compound (VOC) emissions by 9.8 tons per year, which is equivalent to removing 230 cars from the highways.
That's a fair cop, Kris. Thanks for pointing that up!

What's the environmental impact of the many 2-stroke mini-engines that are still available (e.g. weed-whackers, leaf-blowers/dust-generators, chain-saws, and the like)? I suspect they're really bad on a number of levels.
Brandy wrote:[... T]he "long tailpipe" and has been debated and looked at in detail. Short answer the electric motor is more effecient and per "job" uses less energy. So IF you get your energy from a coal fired power plant you are still using less energy and causing less pollution.
I was thinking more along the lines of highly complex kit like computers and whatnot; those do not "age well" when powered on and off successively, and all the energy expended into the making of (transporting of, and disposing of) such kit must be non-trivial. CFLs are another example; they seem to dislike being repeatedly powered on and off, and the cost to do so has been compared, in minute (time) terms versus incandescents. If one "saves" several dollars per month in electricity by powering off one's computer, but then spends eight or nine hundred to replace it after three years the equation doesn't work terribly well as the hardware tends to be a loss-leader.
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Re: Our Environment!

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DALederle wrote:Just for the record I don't beleive in Global Warming.
(Shrug)

A number of years ago, when I was still married, my wife announced at dinner that she "didn't believe in infinity." I didn't know what I was supposed to say to that (she knew I have a PhD in math.) I feel the same way when people say they "don't believe in relativity." Or "don't believe in global warming."

More to the point: if I see a big wire in the road, and a guy in a Con Ed (power company) truck say's it's got 7.5 kV in it, and you tell me it doesn't and I don't need to take a detour around it, you know who I'm going to believe. And you know I'm not getting within 10 feet of it. I'll drive 3 miles out of my way if I have to.

I'm not in a position to personally evaluate global warming or its consequences. But the people who I believe are in a position to know better than anyone else almost unanimously agree it's happening, and that Bad Things are likely to happen, though they're not in agreement as to exactly what. And the people who say it's a lie are basically all people who I know for certain aren't in a position to know, and a lot of them have a vested interest in us not doing the stuff we'd need to do to reverse it.
crfriend wrote:
DALederle wrote:[W]hen the hydrogen fuel cell cars were first being delveloped they extrated hydrogen out of the atmosphere. But big oil lobbied congress and made sure that poduction models had to have hydrogen tanks for filling. In other words, you can't buy a car that runs for free. You have to keep fueling it.
How many other tecnologies are out there being kept under wraps?
This is conspiracy theory and nothing more. Whilst it's a known fact that Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe (it's the simplest -- there's a connection there), it's so rare at ground level on Earth that it's virtually non-existent
Minor nit: hydrogen is actually quite abundant -- it's in water, it's in virtually all organic compounds (like you and me), it's various compounds in rock, it's in pockets underground, mostly as methane. It's H2 (the gas) that's rare.

I've never, ever heard that hydrogen was "extracted out of the atmosphere." The usual way to get hydrogen for fuel cells is to use electrolysis to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, which takes energy -- exactly the energy that you get out of the fuel cell, plus some loss.

Even if H2 were all that abundant in the atomsphere, it would still take quite a bit of energy to separate it from the other components in the air. And if the atmosphere were (almost) pure H2 -- then you'd have the problem of finding another element for it to react with (oxygen? hydrogen? even nitrogen?)

The real problem with fuel cells is that you have to somehow store enough hydrogen to go, say, a few hundred miles within something the size of a car (you get the oxygen from the air.) Just compressing it isn't practical -- the pressures are enourmous (instant car bomb.) They were talking about metal hydride storage, but that had its problems.
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Re: Our Environment!

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AMM wrote:Minor nit: hydrogen is actually quite abundant -- it's in water, it's in virtually all organic compounds (like you and me), it's various compounds in rock, it's in pockets underground, mostly as methane. It's H2 (the gas) that's rare.
Good call, sir. I should have called it out as gaseous hydrogen. Monatomic hydrogen only exists in "rather strange" (as in "high energy") environments. In any event, to "refine" it into gaseous hydrogen from other compounds to feed fuel cells is likely "expensive",.
AMM wrote:The real problem with fuel cells is that you have to somehow store enough hydrogen to go, say, a few hundred miles within something the size of a car (you get the oxygen from the air.) Just compressing it isn't practical -- the pressures are enourmous (instant car bomb.) They were talking about metal hydride storage, but that had its problems.
This is merely an engineering problem. More troublesome is how the general public might regard hydrogen-powered vehicles given that unfortunate accident in the late '30s. Note to the detractors: a large percentage of the folks on the Hindenburg survived the incident -- although there were a couple of folks who were nearly drowned. (Hint: hydrogen is so light it immediately rises away from any airframe that may have contained it.)
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Re: Our Environment!

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AMM wrote:The real problem with fuel cells is that you have to somehow store enough hydrogen to go, say, a few hundred miles within something the size of a car (you get the oxygen from the air.) Just compressing it isn't practical -- the pressures are enourmous (instant car bomb.) They were talking about metal hydride storage, but that had its problems.
This is merely an engineering problem. More troublesome is how the general public might regard hydrogen-powered vehicles given that unfortunate accident in the late '30s. Note to the detractors: a large percentage of the folks on the Hindenburg survived the incident -- although there were a couple of folks who were nearly drowned. (Hint: hydrogen is so light it immediately rises away from any airframe that may have contained it.)
Hydrogen storage was only a small part of the problem. Storage evolved into two huge carbon fiber tanks stuffed in the under chassis, they ran at 10,000 psi. This gave enough H to run a Ford Focus size vehicle just about 300 miles.

Much bigger problem hydrogen is not and energy source like petroleum. Hydrogen is a manufactured gas. There are two current methods of production. Steam reformation and electrolysis. Steam reformation requires steam and natural gas in a high temperature retort. Electrolysis is running a DC current through water that has been conductive (distilled water does not work). Both of these methods require a large energy input. I do not know much about steam reformation, but I looked into the electrolysis since I have solar panels. Taking the overall efficiency of fuel cell and electrolysis I would need 3.5-4x the number of solar panels for the same mileage.

After you produce the H gas it then needs to be compressed for delivery and use. Each stage of compression requires yet more energy.

Transportation, there are limited short H pipelines and require special care. H has the unique ability to slip through the smallest cracks AND H em-brittles steel causing cracks and failures. So H delivery to a mass market is a problem.

Next the fool –cell, errr fuel-cell, I know very little about them I can pass along the hearsay that I know; there is not enough platinum to build all the required cells. The slightest contamination poisons the catalysis’s so the average life was about 5000 mi. The fuel cell market is moving from mobile – cars, to fixed – backup power/cogeneration for office buildings etc.
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Re: Our Environment!

Post by skirted_in_SF »

crfriend wrote: CFLs are another example; they seem to dislike being repeatedly powered on and off, and the cost to do so has been compared, in minute (time) terms versus incandescents.
I work for a company that owns and operates hotels. One of my office friends is our in-house lighting engineer. We have had several discussions on the pros and cons for fluorescent lamps (both CFLs & traditional tubes). While he does specify fluorescents where they are appropriate, he is aware of their disadvantages. On the aesthetic side is the generally less than great color rendering and color temperature. Another problem that affects our guest's experience is the time to full brightness when you turn the lamp on. In my experience it is about 30 seconds to a minute, possibly depending on room temperature, to achieve full brightness. I am basing this on the three CFLs I have in my apartment.

Another issue is the one that Carl talks about in the quote above. My friend shakes his head when thinking about how the popular press and advertisements cite the long life of the lamps as part of your expected savings. He then quotes the manufacturer's catalogs that specify the life as being for lamps operated at 78F and operated for three hours for each on cycle. The CFLs in my home are in fixtures or portable lamps that I turn on when I get home from work and leave on until I go to bed. One gets used to the slightly greenish cast of the light.
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Re: Our Environment!

Post by Brandy »

FYI -- Funny you should mention that ... local climate change report;

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7479610

If link does not work look for " New signs of global warming in the Bay Area "

-- Brandy
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Re: Our Environment!

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Use velomobiles!
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Re: Our Environment!

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crfriend wrote:
AMM wrote:The real problem with fuel cells is that you have to somehow store enough hydrogen to go, say, a few hundred miles within something the size of a car (you get the oxygen from the air.) ....
This is merely an engineering problem.
Only a non-engineer would put "mere" in front of "engineering problem."

The problem with hydrogen-fueled cars, as with electric and solar (and even more exotic ideas) isn't that we can't build them. It's the "mere engineering problem" of making them "practical", i.e., competitive with fossil-fueled vehicles. Things like power and energy per weight, refueling speed and convenience, safety (especially in collisions), lifetime of components, etc., matter at least as much as bare energy efficiency. Electric cars have been around for almost a century, but they have yet to displace fossil-fueled cars except in a few niches, despite decades of development and improvements.
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Re: Our Environment!

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AMM wrote:Only a non-engineer would put "mere" in front of "engineering problem."
I believe my comment was misconstrued. I was stating that the problem could be solved in an engineering sense -- not that it would be trivial or easy. A similar comment that gets tossed around in the circles I inhabit is, "It's just a small matter of programming." which usually translates into, "It's going to be one nasty bugger of a task."

The challenges -- including the ones mentioned above -- cam be solved in a technical sense, just as we have solar-powered "cars" today; however, just because they can be "solved" in a technical sense does not mean that they can be solved in a practical or economic sense. Even if all the technological challenges are solved and a production vehicle becomes possible, but has to sell for $75,000 (random "large" number there), then it will not achieve more than a niche market.

I like the notion of pure electric vehicles, and for applications that do not require extensive range, they make a lot of sense. Plus, with pure electric motive power, one can "fuel" those by means that do not necessarily have a large carbon footprint. I've contemplated looking into a pure electric vehicle, and will likely do some serious consumer-level research into the notion when my current ride expires from old age. My requirements are simple: minimum range of at least 150 miles, day or night summer or winter, the ability to attain and maintain highway speeds, reasonable crashworthiness (recall my incident from last September where I got pinched between an SUV and a bridge), and a reasonable time-to-recharge (call it seven hours or so). That would meet my current driving patterns perfectly, provide a decent reserve even for the longest jaunts I tend to do, and fit in with the shortest possible recharge time given my lifestyle.

As AMM pointed out, electric cars are nothing new; in fact they enjoyed quite a bit of popularity early in the 20th century. However, range was limited, and they were best suited for in-city or in-town use; the internal-combustion engine had better range -- once the fuel-distribution problem was solved -- and the electric car's popularity declined.
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Re: Our Environment!

Post by Gregg1100 »

I fancy one of the bikes in Judge Dread film-nobody seems to put any fuel in them. All electric or so it seems. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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