Dresses

[Sashi]

Well, I think I've gotten most of my skirt-related questions out of the way, and had many things I hadn't even thought of (consciously at least) answered during my various jaunts through old posts (I just finished up 1 1/2 hours of reading), but a slightly new question has formed in my mind and hasn't been answered through my last reading session.

Dresses. I hear about men wearing skirts as men's fashion left and right, but really nothing on the subject of men wearing dresses as men's fashion. Is it just not the right kind of clothing for your average member here, or is it considered too feminine to attempt by most? Personally to me it's either like a nice long skirt or a shirt/skirt combo, and as such it comes across as another type of clothing for me to try out one day.

I do have some questions, though. Has any here had experiences in public and/or with family/friends that gave you some wisdom about the subject you may wish to depart with others? Is it hard to find dresses that fit a man well, since unlike a skirt you have more than one major measurement to match up? Would it be better in the short or long term to just make my own? I do plan on learning to make clothing for cosplay (costume play) of anime/video game characters once I'm able to hit up some anime conventions, so in the future that would be a viable thing as long as I am capable of sewing (don't know my skill level yet, if any).

Well, I hope that's all my questions, and here's to hoping that it all makes sense. I'm right now at the 21 hour or so mark of staying up, so it's possible I've missed something here or there, or screwed something up grammatically or whatever. Sorry in advance for any confusion a mess up or lack of detail may cause. I'll be back on after a good... well, afternoon's sleep I guess it would be, and if there are any major mess ups or holes in the details I can patch it together then.

Night all :tombstone:

[Departed Member]

Dresses. I hear about men wearing skirts as men's fashion left and right, but really nothing on the subject of men wearing dresses as men's fashion. Is it just not the right kind of clothing for your average member here, or is it considered too feminine to attempt by most? Personally to me it's either like a nice long skirt or a shirt/skirt combo, and as such it comes across as another type of clothing for me to try out one day.

There are some who consider Robes (Arabic style or otherwise) as 'dresses' in this context. Or even the Irish Leine. Both certainly 'fit' within the loose definition of 'Dress'. To many here, it would indeed be a quantum leap from 'skirt' to 'dress' and probably way beyond most members' self-imposed limits. By all means experiment, but don't be too surprised if those around you become 'uncomfortable' with the context.

From a purely personal perspective (so no flaming, please, it's my opinion!):

Just as the vast majority of women don't look 'right' in tr*users, neither does an even higher percentage of men look 'right' in a dress.

[Since1982]

In my opinion a "dress" as it's referred to in the USA, is a garment specifically sewn to allow for an area of the body that includes breasts. Since "most" men do not have breasts, some do, due to the male oversized breasts problem called "gynecomastia", but the overbearing majority do not have them, making the wearing of a "dress" as a "male" garment not in the mainstream except for those males that are trying to "pass" as females or at least seem to be more feminine than macho. A skirt on the other hand, can be worn with all kinds of other "considered" male or macho clothes such as work boots or camo shirts and are easily worn in trucks, cars etc.

World wide, there are far more civilizations that consider skirt type garments a definitely male garment and a dress definitely a female garment. There are, world wide, far more men that wear skirted garments (MUGs) than men who regularly wear trousers.

[howard h]

Even women shouldn't wear dresses. The only use for them is as a tent, if you happen to be caught out in rough terrain when it gets dark. And then bin it in the morning.

[Ingemar]

Hi!

I have one dress that is completely "male" whenever a garment could have a gender in itself. It is made by AndersLandinger and whenever I get into it I feel much better dressed than I do even in white and tails as I feel much freer in the dress than in the "uniform".

Greetings

Ingemar

[Bravehearts.us]

Well, let me just say once again I think we’re getting hung up on terms, labels, stereo typing and imagery. Have you ever seen a painters smock? It’s gender neutral. But you’ll see it on a woman and say it’s a woman’s smock. I’ll say, “No, it’s a painter’s smock.” What about a bathrobe? Men wear them. Is that a dress by a different name? Then there are coats that wrap and tie and have collars just like a bathrobe but they’re called coats. You wear them like a dress and they fit like a dress. What about a tunic? Men all over the world wear them. Could they be called a robe? Not if it’s a short one. Then it looks like a blouse. The truth is, we put a label to the “feeling of the image” based on the location in time our culture is in. If the feeling we get from looking at it is male or female then it is a male or female garment. We’re not just labeling the garment but the perception of the garment and what we see associated with it. An example of what I’m talking about is this: Picture an old rocking chair. It’s worn and we know it belonged to someone but basically it’s a chair. Some of us will picture and old man rocking in that chair as he smokes his pipe. Maybe you picture a fat, old Russian woman or a mom nursing her child. We all see something different because we’re associating it with something left over in a corner of our mind. Now if I identify it as my grandmother’s rocking chair, all of a sudden I can smell my grandfather’s cigar smoke and see the light that always came through the window behind my grandmother. The association brings with it a feeling, and a whole story. The same is true when we say the words blouse, skirt, combat boots, rapist, bank robber, etc. Then it takes people, some times frightened but determined people, to push the boundaries so that the "feeling of the image" is changed in society.

[Bob]

A dress is certainly more complex than a skirt, and harder to fit right. You've got the waist and the chest to worry about, as well as everything down below.

I can't tell you what you WANT to look like. But I CAN say a few things about how things WILL look if you try them on:

1. A drawn-in waist will make you look more feminine. A straight line from your torso down through your legs will make you look more masculine. Most men don't have much ability to make a cinched waist anyway, so there's no point in trying to pointlessly emphasize it. On the other hand, a dress with no waistline is a robe, and it might not be so convenient.

2. Pay special attention to the neckline. Many necklines found on woman's clothing just don't look good on guys, in my opinion --- unless you're doing humor-in-drag. But please, find out for yourself. Go to Target, find a lot of shirts or dresses with various necklines, and try them on. Many swooping necklines are meant to give a tantalizing look at cleavage. Without any breasts, there's no point. And with a hairy chest, they just look funny. They might look better with a shaved chest.

The neckline of jumper-type dresses could look decent on a guy, especially if you wear a shirt under them. And the feeling of not having something hanging from your waist is wonderful.

[Krapsparov]

I likes em (in my best Popeye voice)
The jumper dress suggested by Bob is a good idea.
The very essence of this forum is fashion freedom - If you find one that fits (not easy) and suits you, go for it.
Most dresses are tailor made for a womans shape - its not easy

Cheers
Jon

[Sashi]

Nice. Very nice posts here, as it has given me both useful tips and perspectives on the subject. I have a tendency to forget about how various words have different meanings or associations to them in other cultures when I'm on the internet, so by dresses I mean something like http://www.trashqueen.it/gothiclolita/img/giap/03_b.jpg. That's all I've ever known as a dress. Robes are robes and tunics are tunics to me, even if they are dress-like or fit the definition of a dress. Okay, so with that out of the way... :ninjajig:

Seems like we got people on all sides of the field and everything in between with this subject. Some feel that dresses are just too hard to pull of in a masculine way, or that dresses aren't fit for either gender. Others feel neutral on it, or are even pro-dress. It definitely seems like it is quite hard to match up for a guy, both in design and fit. It appears to me that for some of the naysayers at least, it's problematic because it makes up most of your outfit and therefore can't easily be paired up with a piece of clothing (such as a shirt) that is distinctly masculine. This makes it harder to convince people you aren't cross dressing.

On the subject of that last sentence, it appears to me it might (read: most likely) be more problematic to wear a dress around family/friends than a skirt, even if you have achieved an understanding with them about wearing skirts. Intellectually, I'd assume you could use the regular defenses for wearing a skirt, just changing out words, but deep down I have a feeling that probably won't cut it for your average person. While I know you shouldn't have to defend your clothing choices, as long as they aren't obscene, this world's tolerance to difference is quite low in your average person (in my opinion).

As Bravehearts pointed out, while clothing doesn't have a true gender assigned to it, people grow up around things being a certain way and so when confronted with something familiar it brings up memories and feelings. In the case of a dress, or even a lot of skirts for that matter (at least in Western countries), it brings to mind female, femininity, etc. and therefore makes people think oddly about a guy in that kind of clothing. Skirts are easier for a guy to pull off, though, because of associations to things like kilts and roman warriors and stuff, but you really don't have any associations with men in dresses. To me this just makes it seem like a higher, steeper mountain to climb with more pitfalls along the path. Really, what's a dress but a skirt with a built in shirt? (Or vice versa.) I feel it's the next logical step after skirts for those interested, much like moving from pants to shorts (or vice versa, once again). Of course skirts are also a perfectly good ending point, for those who aren't interested in dresses.

A jumper dress sounds like an interesting idea, if I could find one that fit my style. (On a side note, that image I linked to hits pretty close to my interests in style for both skirts and dresses... well, at least to one of the styles that interests me that is.) Thanks for the idea Bob and Krapsparov.

From the sounds of things though, if I'm to find a dress that would not only look good on me, fit me, and fit in with my style I'll be having a real tough time. Of course, once I find out if I have the ability to sew outfits then I could just as easily create my own dresses designed for my measurements. In addition, I'll probably face more adversity in a dress than a skirt, most likely quite openly from family/friends, and since I haven't heard any stories about men in dresses as men's fashion in public I can't even comment on the public scene.

I definitely will experiment around with it one day and see if it is for me, although if it is something for me it will probably only be publicly shown once my confidence with public skirting is fairly solid. I'll definitely keep in mind your tips Bob, as they seem like pretty good ones. So, does anyone have any tips to deal with family/friends while in a dress? Would the same things for a skirt work in an argument against a dress, or was my gut feeling above correct? Has anyone here actually gone out in a dress with the purpose of going out as a man, rather than a man disguised as a woman? If so, do you have any interested or helpful stories to go along with your experience?

The association brings with it a feeling, and a whole story. ... Then it takes people, some times frightened but determined people, to push the boundaries so that the "feeling of the image" is changed in society.

I don't exactly know why, but those words seem to link up with me quite nicely, so thank you for them.

P.S. I'm still tired, since I didn't sleep well, and I have the gut feeling that I either butchered the arrangement of subjects in my post, or just rambled on a little too much. Either way, here's to hoping you get something coherent out of all that text above, and thanks once again for all your replies. They have been pretty eye opening I think, and in my opinion quite civil. I'm glad for that.

[crfriend]

Even women shouldn't wear dresses. The only use for them is as a tent, if you happen to be caught out in rough terrain when it gets dark. And then bin it in the morning.

O, untrue, my friend. A well designed dress is a truly splendid thing on women who can carry it off (and it's getting to be a lost art) -- vastly better than trousers. 'Tis such a shame that dresses are obsolete as a style; they can be really very charming.

However, on men it may be a bit different (mainly because mens' bodies are quite a bit different from womens' bodies). Getting a dress to "work" on a man seems to be difficult, at best. I've been fiddling with possible designs in my head, and the only things I can some up with are variations on "shirt-dresses" (esentially well-tailored dress shirts up top with a flowing attached skirt) or "coat-dresses" (which are quite similar, but somewhat heavier). The "jumper" style might work as well -- I hadn't thought about that.

Bob brought up a good many salient points on how the top half of the garment might work on men (mainly because men really have nothing of "interest" up top) in order to not appear silly or charicatured. Food for thought....

[Departed Member]

....... it appears to me it might (read: most likely) be more problematic to wear a dress around family/friends than a skirt, even if you have achieved an understanding with them about wearing skirts. Intellectually, I'd assume you could use the regular defenses for wearing a skirt, just changing out words, but deep down I have a feeling that probably won't cut it for your average person. While I know you shouldn't have to defend your clothing choices, as long as they aren't obscene, this world's tolerance to difference is quite low in your average person (in my opinion).

You are quite right in your premise here! Just be wary in your quest to go down the 'dress' road, that you don't totally alienate the folk who may only very begrudgingly 'accept' you in skirts, and even those who do. There'll be folk here who'll say, "Do your own thing! S*d everyone else!" Remember, there's only one person who can make that decision. You can always borrow a dress, try it on and take photos! It might just be enough to persuade you it's right/wrong - for you!

[AMM]

Well, there are precedents for men's dress-like garments.

I was in London (UK, not Ontario) recently, playing tourist, and to judge from the paintings I saw reproduced, in the middle ages through the renaissance, robes of some sort or other were almost the norm for men. It was mostly laborers in certain fields and knights (i.e., fighters on horseback) who wore bifurcated garments.

One reason, I think, is that robes are easier to make than trousers, and the fit is less critical. This is a big advantage if you have to spin, weave, and sew your clothes by hand. If you're worried about whether you will have anything at all to cover your body and protect it from the weather, you're going to be less concerned with how the style relates to your gender image.

Moreover, even today, even in what we call modern Western culture, theere are situations where robes are accepted as normal for men. Robes are almost the norm for (male) clergy -- priests/ministers, monks, etc. And when I walk down 125th Street in NYC (Harlem's "Main Street"), I see a fair number of men in robes going about their business, and no one looks twice.

I've thought of making a sort of monk's robe, with a belt, and seeing how I feel about it. And in the summer, a Greek/Roman-style tunic might be very comfortable.

Of course, precisely because "men in robes" have associations in people's minds, they are more likely to assume you are doing it for religious or cultural reasons, and it will be harder to have it taken for just a fashion choice.

-- AMM

[Don]

Dresses. I hear about men wearing skirts as men's fashion left and right, but really nothing on the subject of men wearing dresses as men's fashion. Is it just not the right kind of clothing for your average member here, or is it considered too feminine to attempt by most? Personally to me it's either like a nice long skirt or a shirt/skirt combo, and as such it comes across as another type of clothing for me to try out one day.

Another fascinating topic!!! All of the social rules about men-in-skirts, fashion freedom, and what you read here apply to men-in-dresses as well. For men who want to see dresses as well as skirts become acceptable menswear - and I stand among these - this notion has some even deeper undercurrents!!..

First, a woman's body may be shaped like an hourglass, but a man's body is shaped like a triangle standing on one of its verticies. This suggests that men would be MOST COMFORTABLE in garments that hang from the shoulders rather than ones that hang from the waist. Amazing how humanity got that all screwed up, isn't it?

Virtually any portrayal of the ancients - the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians - shows them wearing what we would call "dresses". Whether or not this is historically accurate is irrelevent, the clothing is beautiful. I, for one, would love to wear Mercury's short-skirt-and-shoulder-sash outfit on a hot summer day, especially with very light and smooth fabrics! But there's the rub, no? I can imagine a men's skirt that is neither a woman's skirt nor a Scotsman's kilt; I'm having a very hard time imagining a men's dress that ISN'T a period piece, and that DOESN'T make me look like a Roman Senator, a Greek Messenger, or an Egyptian Prince!

The other rub is that the most attractive of women's dresses celebrate the most attractive of woman's bodies! Would this be true of men's dresses as well? For now, men are permitted the luxury of grey (or no) hair, beer guts, and other body imperfections, and are far less hung up on body image than women are. The weight loss industry in the USA (and very probably elsewhere) is a ga-jillion dollar business and 99.997% of its clintele is composed of women! Moreover, women are FAR MORE susceptable to eating disorders like Anorexia and the like. But what if men start wearing dresses that show off the body? Would society be as intolerant of body imperfection in men as it now is of women? Would men start experiencing the "side effects" mentioned above? Are you ready for that?

[Krapsparov]

I was just looking at the picture Sashi was pointing us to.
How many legs has the girl on the left have?


I can't fugure it out, but perhaps this is why she wears skirts and dresses in the first place

Jon

[Big and Bashful]

Poor girl, she's only got the three. Must have been in an accident.
What's wrong with a masculine sweatshirt like top, but attached via a loose-ish waist to an unbifurcated doodad, short or long, tight or flared or whatever you want? A dress as I understand it is just a developement of a robe type garment as I understand it. Women have gone for the hourglass style but why not an inverted pyramid shape? or a fat blob for people of my bodytype? There must be a limit to the narrowness at the bottom, if you want to move I suppose, unless you like jumping a lot! so a completely inverted traingular shape might not find many friends, unless they are unipods.