Never mind 2003.

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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STEVIE
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Never mind 2003.

Post by STEVIE »

This was written in 1885, without Google etc, would anyone care to hazard a guess, by whom?
OK, not MIS, but this person was a long way ahead of us in their thinking and illustrates how society has failed to change.
I quote

"All human beings would like to dress in loose and comfortable and highly colored and showy garments, and they had their desire until a century ago, when a king, or some other influential ass, introduced sombre hues and discomfort and ugly designs into masculine clothing. The meek public surrendered to the outrage, and by consequence we are in that odious captivity to-day, and are likely to remain in it for a long time to come. Fortunately the women were not included in the disaster, and so their graces and their beauty still have the enhancing help of delicate fabrics and varied and beautiful colors. Their clothing makes a great opera audience an enchanting spectacle, a delight to the eye and the spirit, a Garden of Eden for charm and color. The men, clothed in dismal black, are scattered here and there and everywhere over the Garden, like so many charred stumps, and they damage the effect, but cannot annihilate it."

To paraphrase it a little further, they go on to say that by virtue of age they will wear white in winter and be the envy of others of their sex for having broken the taboo. Furthermore, they also say quite definitely that it is largely sustained due to the perceived need to conform, keep in line.
From my point of view, it merely underlines the importance of non-conforming and willingness to be seen out of line.
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Midas
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by Midas »

Exactly. Without the awkward sods who are willing to do their own thing we would still be living in caves.
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Myopic Bookworm
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

What a splendid excerpt! Hazarding a guess at the author without recourse to books, never mind the internet is hazardous indeed. It seems a little nonconformist for Dickens, and a little early for Wilde?

(ETA: I've looked it up now: interesting.)
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by Coder »

Wow, I’ve read a lot of their books, was my favorite author at one point, but never read their autobiography, shame too as this passage would have meant a lot to me.
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crfriend
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by crfriend »

It's too early to be George Orwell, out of character for Dickens, and a bit too dark to be H.G. Wells.

Colour me stumped.
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STEVIE
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by STEVIE »

Mark Twain actually and I am just dipping out and into his collected works, most enjoyable too.
He really is talking about fashion freedom in it's widest sense and conformity as a nonsense.
There is even allusion to the gender aspect which really resonates for today.
Now a question, and I haven't bothered to research an answer.
His reference to white, being for summer only, is the "No White after Labour Day" rule what he is getting at?
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crfriend
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by crfriend »

STEVIE wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:19 pmHis reference to white, being for summer only, is the "No White after Labour Day" rule what he is getting at?
I believe the "No white after Labor Day" (to use the US spelling) likely postdated his remarks in the late 1800s, being primarily a matter for the folks in the Northeast with the snow, mud, and slush of winter. In Twain's home area, that wasn't so much of an issue, and I do not believe that "No white after Labor Day" is even observed in the South. It certainly did not seem to be when I visited Savannah, GA at the end of 2021.

It may have been a reference to the warmer temperatures and a deference to those, or possibly a reference to folks putting up an "act of defiance" when the weather was nice enough to do so, only to be shoved back into conformity (and black) once the days got gloomier.

Twain was knowledgeable about the Northeast, and in fact had a home in Connecticut, but that was later on in his life, but whether that was a driver in 1885 is a matter of conjecture.

I'm rather surprised I hadn't thought of Twain on reading that. Thanks!
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Offkilter69
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by Offkilter69 »

STEVIE wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:33 am This was written in 1885, without Google etc, would anyone care to hazard a guess, by whom?
OK, not MIS, but this person was a long way ahead of us in their thinking and illustrates how society has failed to change.
I quote

"All human beings would like to dress in loose and comfortable and highly colored and showy garments, and they had their desire until a century ago, when a king, or some other influential ass, introduced sombre hues and discomfort and ugly designs into masculine clothing. The meek public surrendered to the outrage, and by consequence we are in that odious captivity to-day, and are likely to remain in it for a long time to come. Fortunately the women were not included in the disaster, and so their graces and their beauty still have the enhancing help of delicate fabrics and varied and beautiful colors. Their clothing makes a great opera audience an enchanting spectacle, a delight to the eye and the spirit, a Garden of Eden for charm and color. The men, clothed in dismal black, are scattered here and there and everywhere over the Garden, like so many charred stumps, and they damage the effect, but cannot annihilate it."

If this isn’t the mission statement of this group, I’m not sure what is! Kudos to Mark Twain! Thanks for sharing!
STEVIE
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by STEVIE »

crfriend wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 5:37 pm I'm rather surprised I hadn't thought of Twain on reading that.
I'd never have guessed it either.
My previous knowledge of him didn't go far beyond Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer.
There are many facets and depths to his writing which I am sure many folks don't appreciate.
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rivegauche
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by rivegauche »

I didn't recognise Twain. There is a passage in Huckleberry Finn where Huck puts on a dress to fool an old lady. She suspects that he is a boy and throws something in his lap. He catches it by clamping his legs together instead of spreading them apart - thus giving his true gender away. Not sure it would work nowadays.
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by Grok »

Probably not, rivergauche. For this to work, we would have to make two assumptions about the female:

1. That she is wearing a skirt.

2. That she knows skirtmanship.
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moonshadow
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by moonshadow »

Ah, good old Mark Twain... being canceled long before being canceled was cool! :lol:
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crfriend
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by crfriend »

STEVIE wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:01 pmI'd never have guessed [Twain] either.
My previous knowledge of him didn't go far beyond Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer.
There are many facets and depths to his writing which I am sure many folks don't appreciate.
That's a problem with Twain's (Samuel Clemens, in real life) writing. People are LASER-focused on those particular pieces of fiction. In fact, he was a very serious commentator on various social problems of the day (and there were plenty), and one heck of a humourist at the same time. For fun, read his The Amazing Jumping Frog of Calaveras County. of if you have more time on hand, his The Innocents Abroad which was a recount of a journey of his to the Holy Land. Both are brilliant, and wickedly and hysterically funny.

There was also a decent body of work that he did not want published whilst he was alive, and the one you mentioned may have been an excerpt from one of those.
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rivegauche
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Re: Never mind 2003.

Post by rivegauche »

Grok wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:07 am Probably not, rivergauche. For this to work, we would have to make two assumptions about the female:

1. That she is wearing a skirt.

2. That she knows skirtmanship.
That was rather the point of my last sentence.
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