2003 revisited

[STEVIE]

Interesting pic. Stevie, but in my book the beard gives your 'toxic masculinity' away, despite the gladrags. At my height and with sparse hair, any illusion of 'passing' never occurred to me, even though I crossdressed quite a bit then. My outside sorties were all nocturnal, A/ to avoid crowds and B/ to avoid scrutiny, but it was fun at the time. I was living mostly alone in Germany....late 80s early 90s. No internet and items were mostly mail-ordered from published catalogues.

Things are different now, with several family and descendants living close.

Tom

Hi Tom, I am really not sure what you mean by "your toxic masculinity"? If it was meant to be ironic, it was lost on me.
Twenty years ago, I lived cheek by jowl with wife and kids and it was the pretence which had the most toxic affect on my being.
By that time the "midnight forays" had actually ceased and that worsened the whole situation, "fun" it definitely was not.
Anyone else, yes, attitudes have shifted but not nearly widely enough, perhaps Tom's comments prove that more than anything.
Oh and for the Gods' sakes leave out the "C" word, that has caused enough trouble already.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Have they, though? It's hard to tell.

Regardless, this should've been happening 20 years ago, instead of within the last two, three, or whatever years. It's bad enough certain male celebrities (i.e. Brad Pitt) get shamed for wearing a skirt — as if somehow advocating for and supporting people to wear all types of clothing, no matter their sex/gender, is somehow being "woke" or some form of "humiliation ritual", but reading these comments on this very thread and taking a glance on the first page of the thread you linked tells me that even the attitudes aren't any different. Some are supportive, many are fueled by ignorance and hypocrisy. It's amazing how people still don't understand the irony right in front of their faces. It's more of a exposure deal to me, rather than a shift in perspective.

You are right inasmuch as some people have not moved one inch in twenty years.The LGBT movement has undeniably moved forward, terms used to describe them have all but disappeared and they are fully integrated into society.
However the same is not true for MIS. It seems you still have to join a side. People see you and they want to know which team you are playing for? Unless you can give them something they can readily understand they will think the worst. If you say "I'm a normal guy who likes skirts" many won't believe you, preferring instead to see it as a fetish.
Attitudes are shifting though. In 2003 the MIS on the street was ridiculed. In 2023 he is ignored.
Although they won't admit it, men want this. If the LGBT keeps progressing (it will), we carry on doing what we are doing and our number increase, we will succeed.

[moonshadow]

A lot can change in 20 years...

Consider the changes in society from 1960 through 1980 and from 1980 through 2000...

I wonder what changes will manifest by 2040?

Somehow I don't see "men in skirts" catching on in any meaningful way. I imagine the lion's share of males that may wear skirts from time to time will fall along the nonbinary spectrum. The changes will be subtle year by year, but compared to 1940 (100 years) I do believe we will be in a completely different social paradigm.

Anyway... monkey see, monkey do.... except for when it comes to men wearing skirts..

One kid eats a Tide pod? They all eat Tide pods.

One kid vapes? They all vape.

One kid huffs whip cream cans? They all huff whip cream cans.

Yep... it seems everything imaginable has gone viral at some point or another... monkey see, monkey do... except for guys that wear skirts.

Maybe we're space aliens.

[Barleymower]

A lot can change in 20 years...

Consider the changes in society from 1960 through 1980 and from 1980 through 2000...

I wonder what changes will manifest by 2040?

Somehow I don't see "men in skirts" catching on in any meaningful way. I imagine the lion's share of males that may wear skirts from time to time will fall along the nonbinary spectrum. The changes will be subtle year by year, but compared to 1940 (100 years) I do believe we will be in a completely different social paradigm.

Anyway... monkey see, monkey do.... except for when it comes to men wearing skirts..

One kid eats a Tide pod? They all eat Tide pods.

One kid vapes? They all vape.

One kid huffs whip cream cans? They all huff whip cream cans.

Yep... it seems everything imaginable has gone viral at some point or another... monkey see, monkey do... except for guys that wear skirts.

Maybe we're space aliens.

No we are not.
I said similar myself at home. I could led a war against the barbarian hordes. Come home a hero. If I came home wearing a skirt I might have well not bothered. In the world in which we live, wearing a skirt endangers reproduction. It doesn't of course

What if wearing a skirt fell along the nonbinary spectrum? So what? Probably half the men I know are hiding their nonbinary selves. That could be mean that half of men will be wearing skirts and the rest will follow suit. It's all so messed up out there.

My mum said little boys are such tender little souls. Girls are much tougher. Ironic that they have to be tough ones when they are men.

[Coder]

Somehow I don't see "men in skirts" catching on in any meaningful way. I imagine the lion's share of males that may wear skirts from time to time will fall along the nonbinary spectrum. The changes will be subtle year by year, but compared to 1940 (100 years) I do believe we will be in a completely different social paradigm.

Some days I hope it will catch on, other days I don't care one way or the other, and yet others I feel like if it became a trend I might pull back a bit or still be the odd man out as I wouldn't wear what was trending.

[STEVIE]

Somehow I don't see "men in skirts" catching on in any meaningful way. I imagine the lion's share of males that may wear skirts from time to time will fall along the nonbinary spectrum. The changes will be subtle year by year, but compared to 1940 (100 years) I do believe we will be in a completely different social paradigm.

Some days I hope it will catch on, other days I don't care one way or the other, and yet others I feel like if it became a trend I might pull back a bit or still be the odd man out as I wouldn't wear what was trending.

Seventeen years from now, if we haven't ceased to exist on this planet men in skirts may or may not be "on trend".
Actually the fashion doesn't matter, what does is the choice, nothing else.
I honestly believe that no one will really care about who wears what and that is an end in itself.
If I can help to make that happen then I reckon I have actually done some good.
Steve.

[moonshadow]

What if wearing a skirt fell along the nonbinary spectrum? So what? Probably half the men I know are hiding their nonbinary selves

Oh no.... I'm not poking that issue with a stick again. Last time I dared to speak of such things, it exploded in my face and it took weeks to get the sticky mess out of my hair.

As for me, I can only speak for myself, and on that regard, I shall refrain.

Politics - Religion - Gender theory - Voldemort. The four forbidden topics that lead to inevitable nuclear standoffs.

[NOTE 02052023]On that note, I hereby recall everything I've ever said... EVER! Pay no mind to me, I am insane. Do not follow me, for I am lost, and know not where I'm heading.

And my grammar sux too.

Some days I hope it will catch on, other days I don't care one way or the other, and yet others I feel like if it became a trend I might pull back a bit or still be the odd man out as I wouldn't wear what was trending.

I don't think you have much to worry about.

Will it catch on? Odds are VERY unfavorable. Will it remain legal? Likely. So... just keep being you.

Actually the fashion doesn't matter, what does is the choice, nothing else.

Yep, and the choice has existed at some level or another since before I was born, though I realize in the early days there were some real social consequences, and even some legal consequences (back in the EARLY days) to men wearing skirts. These days those social consequences are confined to certain situations. In the public square, in addition to many [0] private, public, and employment situations, men are increasingly allowed to wear skirts provided they are appropriate for the situation.

[0] I said "many" NOT "ALL", or "MOST". Yes, I realize there are still situations where men can't wear skirts and women are free to choose, but those given situations seem to be dwindling year after year.

To those who disagree, please see [NOTE 02052023]

[Ozdelights]

Moon, you said it so well. I like to converse, learn from others' opinion and be willing to give mine. Note, converse and learn not argue.

[crfriend]

In essence we're running an experiment, not in the sterile world of the Ivory Tower, but in the Real World

Yes, and Quatermass would just love us to bits.

Well played, Sir! Very well played!

[Barleymower]

What if wearing a skirt fell along the nonbinary spectrum? So what? Probably half the men I know are hiding their nonbinary selves

Oh no.... I'm not poking that issue with a stick again. Last time I dared to speak of such things, it exploded in my face and it took weeks to get the sticky mess out of my hair.

As for me, I can only speak for myself, and on that regard, I shall refrain.

Politics - Religion - Gender theory - Voldemort. The four forbidden topics that lead to inevitable nuclear standoffs.

[NOTE 02052023]On that note, I hereby recall everything I've ever said... EVER! Pay no mind to me, I am insane. Do not follow me, for I am lost, and know not where I'm heading.

And my grammar sux too.

Oh dear dangerous ground..
Further discussion on this subject could lead to cries of "run away, run away" [monty pyton].
So with no expectation of any further reply. My view for what is worth:

MIS are like Russel Crow in 'Gladiator'! (Who appears to be sporting a blue denim pinafore dress under his combat tassels)

Screenshot_20230206_075442_DuckDuckGo.jpg

Really I don't think any of it matters. Masculinity, femininity both exist and everything inbetween exists in equal measures. The human race should not get so uptight about it all.

[familyman34]

People just see a guy in a skirt, shrug their shoulders and carry on with their day. With the advent of LGBT, many won't go out of the way to be abusive. Though I noticed more manskirt sightings in London than before just this year (and not kilts). One guy in a black skirt striding through the City (financial district) a mini skirted student in Kings Cross, and a man in a long flowing blue skirt in North London just this week.

Funny, that! On Saturday afternoon I spent 45 minutes walking up and down the hall of St Pancras International station in London (wearing a skirt, of course). In that time I was observing the crowds, and counting the numbers of other people that I saw wearing skirts (or otherwise with bare legs):
Shorts (long) - 2 males
Long Dresses - 2 females
Mini-dress - 1 female
Long Skirts (Midi or longer) - 3 females
Mini-skirt - 1 female
Total number of persons in the hall - over 600, perhaps as many as 1000
Number of international trains arriving - 3 (so probably another 400 persons at least to add to those already in the hall.

Everyone else was in trousers/leggings/jeans, and almost all in drab colours as well. So boring!

My skirt was a shortish number from Boden, in royal blue.

[new2skirts]

People just see a guy in a skirt, shrug their shoulders and carry on with their day. With the advent of LGBT, many won't go out of the way to be abusive. Though I noticed more manskirt sightings in London than before just this year (and not kilts). One guy in a black skirt striding through the City (financial district) a mini skirted student in Kings Cross, and a man in a long flowing blue skirt in North London just this week.

Funny, that! On Saturday afternoon I spent 45 minutes walking up and down the hall of St Pancras International station in London (wearing a skirt, of course). In that time I was observing the crowds, and counting the numbers of other people that I saw wearing skirts (or otherwise with bare legs):
Shorts (long) - 2 males
Long Dresses - 2 females
Mini-dress - 1 female
Long Skirts (Midi or longer) - 3 females
Mini-skirt - 1 female
Total number of persons in the hall - over 600, perhaps as many as 1000
Number of international trains arriving - 3 (so probably another 400 persons at least to add to those already in the hall.

Everyone else was in trousers/leggings/jeans, and almost all in drab colours as well. So boring!

My skirt was a shortish number from Boden, in royal blue.

At the wrong part of the station if you walk up to Pancras Square where they have redeveloped York Way, The Gasworks (former industrial area) and Pancras Square, you'll find a good number of trendy shops, and students from University of The Arts London - they must have residences nearby - I have seen at least 5 skirted men since November (excluding folk in traditional Islamic robes - which seems to be on the increase in young men) in a variety of hem lengths from "I couldn't sit down in that" to ankle length

As the weather warms up, more will come out of their shell. I was in a denim skirt today (knee length), many just ignore and get on with their lives. I guess denim is so ubiquitous.

Seen more guys wearing what seems to be regular ladies tights under running shorts, they didn't appear to be the typical sports leggings / bottoms I have seen guys in.

For travel I'd wear jeans as its more convenient, the most skirted women I saw were perhaps staff from the railway (was back in the area today)

Would love to see a pic of your outfit, did you get any reactions in Royal Blue?

[Grok]

I wonder what changes will manifest by 2040?

Somehow I don't see "men in skirts" catching on in any meaningful way. I imagine the lion's share of males that may wear skirts from time to time will fall along the nonbinary spectrum. The changes will be subtle year by year, but compared to 1940 (100 years) I do believe we will be in a completely different social paradigm.

If we think in terms of mainstream society (the majority of people), then I expect change to move at a glacial pace. Change on a generational time scale-the young are not yet set in their ways; the Old Fogeys, with their antiquated views, die off. Every few decades, the newly dominant view point is somewhat more liberal than the previously dominant viewpoint.

When might MIS blossom in the mainstream? Probably beyond the lifespans of any members. I am thinking of the 22nd century.

For the rest of my life? I think the most likely change for men is a triple pipe arrangement. Skorts. Wrap skirts worn over trousers, to either keep the rain off, or provide extra insulation during winter.

One pipe rigs? More problematic. This particular topic has been discussed multiple times.

I do have one new speculation along these lines. Men who choose skirts designed for men might come to be tolerated as mavericks. "Your outfit isn't mainstream, but its okay for you (as an individual) to wear it."

[Grok]

Regarding my last speculation, there is a basis for this. An old thread, dating back to 2009 in Freestyle Fashions-"Skirt Boys Tribe Growing in Japan."

[Offkilter69]

I wonder what changes will manifest by 2040?

Somehow I don't see "men in skirts" catching on in any meaningful way. I imagine the lion's share of males that may wear skirts from time to time will fall along the nonbinary spectrum. The changes will be subtle year by year, but compared to 1940 (100 years) I do believe we will be in a completely different social paradigm.

If we think in terms of mainstream society (the majority of people), then I expect change to move at a glacial pace. Change on a generational time scale-the young are not yet set in their ways; the Old Fogeys, with their antiquated views, die off. Every few decades, the newly dominant view point is somewhat more liberal than the previously dominant viewpoint.

When might MIS blossom in the mainstream? Probably beyond the lifespans of any members. I am thinking of the 22nd century.

For the rest of my life? I think the most likely change for men is a triple pipe arrangement. Skorts. Wrap skirts worn over trousers, to either keep the rain off, or provide extra insulation during winter.


I do have one new speculation along these lines. Men who choose skirts designed for men might come to be tolerated as mavericks. "Your outfit isn't mainstream, but its okay for you (as an individual) to wear it."

I, too, agree that skirts for men will not likely be mainstream in the lifetimes of those who are 50 and older. It took a bit of time for women wearing pants to become mainstream, and most women wanted it to happen. Most men do not want to wear skirts or do not know that may like wearing skirts because they have never allowed themselves to consider it.

The “Maverick” designation could happen sooner, though, with skirts that are either unisex or designed for men. Men who wear their hair long or wear earrings were once considered mavericks or rebels. Utility kilts (my foray into the non bifurcated fashion world, at least to start) are the first step to that possibility. It’s definitely a niche market, but recognized. Skirtcraft gets props for producing America’s first (?) marketed unisex skirt that is affordable to the masses.

With time, who knows? The younger generations are much more open to the acceptance and fostering of different social norms. The MIS future perhaps depends on far they are willing to take it.

Bottom line, it has to be a gradual process. While we usually have the freedom to wear whatever we want, to make a legitimate dent in the longstanding sexism on both sides of the gender equation, men cannot expect stereotypical feminine colors, fabrics, prints and styles to be readily accepted by the masses as men’s wear. Skirts and kilts done in “masculine” colors and styling (functional pockets and belt loops) should be the introductory entries into men’s fashion. As much as many may desire more bold or softer colors and styling, that approach “ain’t gonna cut it” to affect real changes as a starting point.