2003 revisited

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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crfriend
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:34 amI feel like I missed those posts - I presume they were removed... or was I duped by a bot?
Getting an ID on a 'bot, AI, or AS can be tricky. I've been watching the one that behaves like Eliza for some time now, and the "writing style" is rather distinct, and the content is remarkably lacking being mostly readbacks and paraphrases of readbacks. The one I'd tentatively classed as AS may just be a human with Asperger's Syndrome; telling those apart is almost impossible.

One clue that you may not be dealing with a human is when a long-dead thread suddenly lights up again with some sort of content-free post.

Wikipedia has a decent write-up on "chatbots" and their uses, misuses, and threat profiles.

Personally, I think chatbots are an inane waste of time, and if it wasn't for the fact that I have to deal with them in my line of work (and in my personal life as well) I'd ignore them entirely and eschew doing business with organisations that deploy them. I'm particularly miffed at my bank and at Amtrak. For instance, Amtrak's web-site is so focused on AI and "making it easy" that train timetables [0] are no longer available and one has to go through the AI dance to even book a ticket. Fortunately I don't move around on the planet much any more and when I do it's usually only one change of trains, but the big trip my late ex- and I did in the 1990s would be completely impossible to book now; it simply could not be done using the AI and one cannot reach a human being. (That trip took me a week to lay out, using timetables and old-school techniques, was booked with a ticket-agent at a train station at an off-peak hour because it took 45 minutes of his time, and was one heck of a blast for two weeks as we rolled around the 48 states touching all four corners. It took ten different trains and had four layovers and eight connections [1]. Any modern attempt at AI would fail after the first connection.)


[0] Timetables, for gods' sake -- these used to be the bread-and-butter of the industry, and now you can't get them.
[1] I started in Boston, she in Worcester; we connected in Chicago, went to Seattle where we spent a day. I wanted to take the then experimental Spanish-made Talgo train whilst I was out in that part of the world, so we went from Seattle to Portland where we spent another night before getting on another one to San Francisco (back when it was still a nice city). From there, a very fast change-of-trains in Los Angeles where they held a train for us and hustled us across the tracks to get to the other one because walking the platforms would have taken too long. Then on to New Orleans where we spent 3 days (and I got mugged), then a fast change in Jacksonville, a trip up the east coast to DC, then a Metroliner from DC to New York, thence to Boston and back home to Worcester. Two weeks -- and the things you see are amazing!
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Grok
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Grok »

Looked up some things in an old dictionary I still have, though it is falling apart. Definitions that are relevant to the discussion:

1. Maverick-an independent person, esp. in politics.

2. Eccentric-one who deviates from a conventional or established pattern.

3. Halfway-midway between two points or conditions; partial.

Elaborating on 1 and 2:

Maverick. An independent person, but that which (somewhat) sets him apart is still within the fringes of the Mainstream.

Eccentric. What sets him apart is outside the Mainstream. The eccentric may be tolerated because his deviation is viewed as harmless to others and, in effect, self contained.
rode_kater
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by rode_kater »

crfriend wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:51 pm Fortunately I don't move around on the planet much any more and when I do it's usually only one change of trains, but the big trip my late ex- and I did in the 1990s would be completely impossible to book now; it simply could not be done using the AI and one cannot reach a human being. (That trip took me a week to lay out, using timetables and old-school techniques, was booked with a ticket-agent at a train station at an off-peak hour because it took 45 minutes of his time, and was one heck of a blast for two weeks as we rolled around the 48 states touching all four corners. It took ten different trains and had four layovers and eight connections [1]. Any modern attempt at AI would fail after the first connection.)
This isn't so much an AI thing though. When I was doing a slightly complex flight itinerary a few years ago I ended up using a travel agent? Why? Because they have privileged access to other booking systems that allows them to book flights and hold them 48-72 hours without paying. So we could play around with the different legs and hold down flights with a fixed price while we figured out the rest. If you do it yourself you have to either pay on the spot, or run the risk that the price will have changed or the flight booked up while you're looking.

I've never seen a website that offered that much flexibility. Though the travel agent didn't actually cost anything extra so I'd do it again if it came up.
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crfriend
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:28 pmThis isn't so much an AI thing though. When I was doing a slightly complex flight itinerary a few years ago I ended up using a travel agent? Why? Because they have privileged access to other booking systems that allows them to book flights and hold them 48-72 hours without paying.
My primary point was that without "special access" it is now impossible to do anything even remotely "advanced" with the only passenger rail-carrier in the US. They don't even publish timetables for individual trains any longer, nevermind the comprehensive "System Timetable" which had every train that they ran. Those are not even available as PDFs now, nevermind DTF (Dead Tree Format, aka "paper"). Thus it is not possible for the lay person to make intelligent decisions about things like layovers or even routes. Worse is that the "AI" isn't smart enough to show multiple connection points on a route. Boneheads. But, "Welcome to the future!"
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Grok
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Grok »

I have to consider an alternative scenario-instead of MIS gaining traction, we may see a shortage of available skirts. Limitations:

1. A general pattern in which an entrepreneur tries to sell a new design to men, and then goes out of business in a few years.

2. Skirts marketed to women-stores selling fewer and fewer new skirts.

3. Skirts marketed to women-dwindling supplies in thrift stores.


I think that it would be a good idea :idea: to learn to sew. Bypass lack of choices by making your own garments.
Grok
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Grok »

Triple pipe rig rig.

I was somewhat surprised to see a male model wearing something with the "unisex" label.
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Sinned
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Sinned »

Looks fine but why buy this when you can get alternatives at a fraction of the price?
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Coder »

There it is again "skirt shorts". I mean, I dislike the name (and obviously the price is $$$$), but if that was the name "they" settled on for men's skirts, I could accept it.
Grok
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Re: Transition

Post by Grok »

Based on my own experience as well as what other members have described....

A newbie to MIS could be compared to a kid who is just starting to learn to ride a bicycle. You have to learn to do things differently. For example, learning to balance with your feet off the ground. Learning to stop by breaking....

(Trying a triple pipe rig could be compared to a small child learning to ride a tricycle).
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote: Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:16 pm There it is again "skirt shorts". I mean, I dislike the name (and obviously the price is $$$$), but if that was the name "they" settled on for men's skirts, I could accept it.
Agreed, legitimize or validate or approve or whatever men wearing skirts and “they” can call it anything they want.
STEVIE
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by STEVIE »

Grok wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:19 pm A newbie to MIS could be compared to a kid who is just starting to learn to ride a bicycle. You have to learn to do things differently. For example, learning to balance with your feet off the ground. Learning to stop by breaking.
Sure Grok, that is true but generally the kid will have all the encouragement needed to progress.
Most guys in skirts will not have that luxury showered on us by society.
If we wait for "approval" in any shape or form then the wait will be a very long one.
I was a newbie aged 5 and it took me 50 years to permit myself to dress as I please.
Please learn from that one thing because I could have been saved some considerable heartache with the same advice.
Steve.
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 6:35 am
Grok wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:19 pm A newbie to MIS could be compared to a kid who is just starting to learn to ride a bicycle. You have to learn to do things differently. For example, learning to balance with your feet off the ground. Learning to stop by breaking.
Sure Grok, that is true but generally the kid will have all the encouragement needed to progress.
Most guys in skirts will not have that luxury showered on us by society.
If we wait for "approval" in any shape or form then the wait will be a very long one.
I was a newbie aged 5 and it took me 50 years to permit myself to dress as I please.
Please learn from that one thing because I could have been saved some considerable heartache with the same advice.
Steve.
Stevie I understand what you are saying, sort of. How could the last 50 years have been different? Given that the people around you will be the same.
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by STEVIE »

Barleymower wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:25 am Stevie I understand what you are saying, sort of. How could the last 50 years have been different? Given that the people around you will be the same.
Hi BM,
If at 5 I had been able to tell and been allowed to choose my own clothes, I am certain that I would have been spared a lot of the stress and depression that I endured until was actually about 50.
I know that we cannot turn back time so I don't really know how things would have turned out in the end.
Perhaps I wouldn't be Steve and Sara would have won, I don't know or really care.
My only other certainty is that since I ceased worrying about conforming to societal expectation I have become a better, happier and healthier individual.
My point for "newbies" is this wear what makes you happy now, not at some unknown point in the future when society may accept it more readily than today. Sorry to say that anyone who says that it will all be easy and plain sailing though is talking rubbish to some degree or another.
The other is that if you wear a skirt, do it loud and proud, calling it what it is and let the pointless alternative labels go.
My opinion, my experience and my life.
Steve.
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crfriend
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by crfriend »

STEVIE wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:08 pmIf at 5 I had been able to tell and been allowed to choose my own clothes, I am certain that I would have been spared a lot of the stress and depression that I endured until was actually about 50.
I know that we cannot turn back time so I don't really know how things would have turned out in the end.
Perhaps I wouldn't be Steve and Sara would have won, I don't know or really care.
If I might hazard a guess, "Sara" was a mental construct that would have "allowed" you to wear the "forbidden garments" and little else. Face it, at five, none of us were terribly aware of what the future might hold, and children are very, very quick to pick up on inequalities around them. We don't get jaded until much later and our immature minds try to work out "remedies" to the problem.

Offhand, I suspect you'd have wound up being somewhat close to who you are now, but with a heck of a lot less angst and anguish at an early age.
My only other certainty is that since I ceased worrying about conforming to societal expectation I have become a better, happier and healthier individual.
This is the viewpoint of an adult who finally fully grasps the world condition. Does that condition sometimes suck? Sure as Hell it does.
My point for "newbies" is this wear what makes you happy now, not at some unknown point in the future when society may accept it more readily than today. Sorry to say that anyone who says that it will all be easy and plain sailing though is talking rubbish to some degree or another.
This is axiomatic. If one is to go sailing, one must occasionally expect bad wind, shallows, rocks in the channel, and all manner of other assorted hazards. It's how we deal with those hazards that sets us apart from the mundane. Has this been a clear path for me? Absolutely not, and I've had my share of grief. Would I do it any differently? Likely not all that much because it's important to me.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Barleymower
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Re: 2003 revisited

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:08 pm
Barleymower wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 8:25 am Stevie I understand what you are saying, sort of. How could the last 50 years have been different? Given that the people around you will be the same.
Hi BM,
If at 5 I had been able to tell and been allowed to choose my own clothes, I am certain that I would have been spared a lot of the stress and depression that I endured until was actually about 50.
I know that we cannot turn back time so I don't really know how things would have turned out in the end.
Perhaps I wouldn't be Steve and Sara would have won, I don't know or really care.
My only other certainty is that since I ceased worrying about conforming to societal expectation I have become a better, happier and healthier individual.
My point for "newbies" is this wear what makes you happy now, not at some unknown point in the future when society may accept it more readily than today. Sorry to say that anyone who says that it will all be easy and plain sailing though is talking rubbish to some degree or another.
The other is that if you wear a skirt, do it loud and proud, calling it what it is and let the pointless alternative labels go.
My opinion, my experience and my life.
Steve.
It's so hard to tell Stevie. But on principles I agree with you one hundred percent.
Endurance of stress and depression.tick
Happier healthy individual. tick
Don't wait. tick
If you like soft flowery skirts, don't wear brown linen skirts as a compromise. Go for it. tick

There's a thread nearby from 2015 asking how will things have changed in 10 years. Well we are nearly there and not much has changed. Not only am I going to carry on but I'm probably going to up stakes and move to a more accepting place
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