Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Barleymower
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Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Barleymower »

Positive article from down under
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fashi ... c11505d5dd

Very similar article in the New Zealand herald, not word for word.

The skirts for men movement is gaining momentum.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by crfriend »

If this can actually brought to pass then it'd be a massive win for men everywhere. It'd be so nice to see machismo dead, staked, and buried.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Brad »

crfriend wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:13 pm It'd be so nice to see machismo dead, staked, and buried.
We must be careful what we wish for. We do not want men to become merely women with male anatomy. There is a pervading conventional wisdom that masculinity is bad and must be eliminated. According to this line of thinking, we have wars, rapists, fatherless households. and most crime because of toxic masculinity. Men have dropped out of college, and the workforce in greater numbers than women. In the dystopian end, men will become obsolete and will be necessary only as sperm donors. There is nothing wrong with being born male. We can be both masculine and wear skirts. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Barleymower »

I am not a fan of exaggerated masculinity neither do I believe in toxic masculinity which is a feminist construct.
Mens masculinity cannot be taken away it is programmed in. Wearing nice clothes will only serve to make men happier.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Ozdelights »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being/expressing/acting anywhere from masculine to feminine, we are all somewhere along that spectrum. Now the but - we must treat others fairly and respectfully. I understand 'toxic masculinity' to be where the 'masculinity' results in unfair treatment of our fellow humans.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by crfriend »

To Brad's comment, I was not referring to eliminating "masculinity" at all -- I was referring specifically to the 3rd-rate parody of it that is "machismo". It's the latter that needs to be expunged. Men are just fine; it's the little tiny box that they've been shoved into, mainly by the "feminists", that's the issue.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Brad »

Thanks for clarifying Carl. And I totally agree.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by rivegauche »

You could argue forever about whether the existence of toxic males means toxic masculinity exists. There are a lot of toxic males, and there are certain circumstances (Ukraine) where the toxicity is associated with poor education. Do I have actual evidence to support this? No - it is a perception. I am pretty sure that male behaviour towards women is determined by upbringing and merely enabled by anatomy - nothing to do with the Y chromosome itself. I feel that macho behaviour is over-compensation for feelings of inadequacy as a male. Women should be treated with respect by men at all times. Does wearing a skirt reduce toxicity? My take on this no, but what it does do, and I think this is important - is demonstrate that we refuse to accept symbols of women and their status as inferior. The fundamental problem is that many societies see women as inferior to men and this is reflected in behaviour.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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rivegauche wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:22 pm You could argue forever about whether the existence of toxic males means toxic masculinity exists. There are a lot of toxic males, and there are certain circumstances (Ukraine) where the toxicity is associated with poor education. Do I have actual evidence to support this? No - it is a perception. I am pretty sure that male behaviour towards women is determined by upbringing and merely enabled by anatomy - nothing to do with the Y chromosome itself. I feel that macho behaviour is over-compensation for feelings of inadequacy as a male. Women should be treated with respect by men at all times. Does wearing a skirt reduce toxicity? My take on this no, but what it does do, and I think this is important - is demonstrate that we refuse to accept symbols of women and their status as inferior. The fundamental problem is that many societies see women as inferior to men and this is reflected in behaviour.
I’ve heard this argument before, and I think it’s brilliant. Why can a women wear menswear and be lauded yet a man dons womenswear and is ridiculed?

It was explained to me as ingrained, systemic misogyny. From all people who mock men wearing traditionally women’s stuff. Note of caution, women do not like it when their misogyny is shown to them, be gentle.

Basic premise is, IF you believe women are the inferior gender and men are the superior gender, then the clothing associated with each gender becomes a hierarchical symbol. So when an inferior adopts the symbols of their superiors, they are lauded. When a superior deigns themselves to adopt the symbols of the inferior class, they are ridiculed.

But this only happens when the speaker inherently believes that men are superior and women are inferior.

People who do not have these beliefs do not find men wearing clothing traditionally associated with women funny.

Disclaimer: to anyone who interprets this post as accusatory, biting or attacking anyone, this is a simplification of a problem. There do exist other reasons for people to mock others. This is but one reason and I present it in the vein of debate and discussion. This is absolutely not an attack on anyone. If you have interpreted any ill feelings aimed at you whilst reading this post, please understand that is not the intention. PS. RG I do not include this disclaimer here due to anything you have posted.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Uncle Al »

This is a great quote :!:
Dr Camilla Nelson, an expert in gender and media cultures, is also pretty thrilled
by the skirt trend. She explained: “The reality is that men have been wearing skirts
since the year “dot” – by which I mean, togas, tights, wigs, gowns, kilts, sarongs,
and make-up with beauty spots. The more interesting question is why men stopped
wearing skirts – and that’s where the nitty-gritty of hetero-normative masculinity starts.

“Gender fluid fashion is good for everybody – personally, I highly recommend dresses as
they’re a lot more comfortable, and you don’t need to waste time finding a matching top.”

The first paragraph sums up history quite well. The last sentence of the first paragraph,
says quite a bit. Other than the Industrial Revolution - for human safety, WHY :scratch:

Men wearing skirts won’t stop all the misogyny in the world, but at the very least, it is a welcome reminder that more and more men are utterly sick of gender norms and are prepared shuck their pants, throw on a skirt and make masculinity cool again.
WE at Skirt Cafe', are helping to lead the way :!: :D

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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Barleymower »

Uncle Al wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:07 pm This is a great quote :!:
Dr Camilla Nelson, an expert in gender and media cultures, is also pretty thrilled
by the skirt trend. She explained: “The reality is that men have been wearing skirts
since the year “dot” – by which I mean, togas, tights, wigs, gowns, kilts, sarongs,
and make-up with beauty spots. The more interesting question is why men stopped
wearing skirts – and that’s where the nitty-gritty of hetero-normative masculinity starts.

“Gender fluid fashion is good for everybody – personally, I highly recommend dresses as
they’re a lot more comfortable, and you don’t need to waste time finding a matching top.”

The first paragraph sums up history quite well. The last sentence of the first paragraph,
says quite a bit. Other than the Industrial Revolution - for human safety, WHY :scratch:

Men wearing skirts won’t stop all the misogyny in the world, but at the very least, it is a welcome reminder that more and more men are utterly sick of gender norms and are prepared shuck their pants, throw on a skirt and make masculinity cool again.
WE at Skirt Cafe', are helping to lead the way :!: :D

Uncle Al
:mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen:
Yes! This what it is all about. Men and Women are at war and they shouldn't be. By thowing off the boring trousers and wearing something nicer, something more colourful, more fun, men are leading the way to happier place for everyone.

BTW. I can't remember if I read it here or just read it on the Web but Vivienne Westwood was far ahead of her time when she predicted men would return to more flamboyant clothes

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/a ... style.html

Here's Sue Lawley and Russel Harty ripping into Vivienne W on Wogan.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKZaYLTP0Zg

(For those away for England's shores Sue, Russel and Wogan were massive when people watched TV)
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by JeffB1959 »

Uncle Al wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:07 pm This is a great quote :!:
Dr Camilla Nelson, an expert in gender and media cultures, is also pretty thrilled
by the skirt trend. She explained: “The reality is that men have been wearing skirts
since the year “dot” – by which I mean, togas, tights, wigs, gowns, kilts, sarongs,
and make-up with beauty spots. The more interesting question is why men stopped
wearing skirts – and that’s where the nitty-gritty of hetero-normative masculinity starts.

“Gender fluid fashion is good for everybody – personally, I highly recommend dresses as
they’re a lot more comfortable, and you don’t need to waste time finding a matching top.”

The first paragraph sums up history quite well. The last sentence of the first paragraph,
says quite a bit. Other than the Industrial Revolution - for human safety, WHY :scratch:

Men wearing skirts won’t stop all the misogyny in the world, but at the very least, it is a welcome reminder that more and more men are utterly sick of gender norms and are prepared shuck their pants, throw on a skirt and make masculinity cool again.
WE at Skirt Cafe', are helping to lead the way :!: :D

Uncle Al
:mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen:
The first paragraph was absolutely brilliant. And the second paragraph about the ease of wearing dresses was spot on too! :lol:
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Stu »

I detest the term "toxic masculinity". It is essentially a kind of hate speech invented by feminists and other misandrists to denigrate men. Being a plonker can take many forms and those who overdo the macho thing as just one example. Some females have inclinations that could be regarded as "toxic", but I would never associate that with their femininity. If you are mugged while in London, there is an 80% chance that your mugger will be black (as in African-Caribbean) even though this section comprises a mere 15% of the London population - but would we say that's "toxic blackness"? I hope not. Let's call out bad behaviour for the behaviour rather than allowing identity politics to dictate the terms.

Once we associate men's reluctance to wearing skirts with toxic masculinity, we have lost the battle. We are, by definition, buying into the assumption that skirts are by nature feminine rather than garments anyone can wear, and that men who don skirts are yielding some or all of their masculinity by so-doing.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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Barleymower wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:24 pm Men and Women are at war
What I don’t get about your post is this line. What is this war you speak of? Personally, I think we speak of the “they” that are fighting “us” and yet there are no “they” and “us” armies. I truly think this is a concocted war that plays out in our minds but not real life. Just like those who are openly wearing swear to us that no one really cares yet to us newbies, we swear the world will ridicule us.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by ScotL »

Stu wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:28 pm I detest the term "toxic masculinity". It is essentially a kind of hate speech invented by feminists and other misandrists to denigrate men. Being a plonker can take many forms and those who overdo the macho thing as just one example. Some females have inclinations that could be regarded as "toxic", but I would never associate that with their femininity. If you are mugged while in London, there is an 80% chance that your mugger will be black (as in African-Caribbean) even though this section comprises a mere 15% of the London population - but would we say that's "toxic blackness"? I hope not. Let's call out bad behaviour for the behaviour rather than allowing identity politics to dictate the terms.

Once we associate men's reluctance to wearing skirts with toxic masculinity, we have lost the battle. We are, by definition, buying into the assumption that skirts are by nature feminine rather than garments anyone can wear, and that men who don skirts are yielding some or all of their masculinity by so-doing.
I think you just defined the term toxic masculinity. ‘A plonker who overdoes the macho thing.’ I don’t think feminists invented this term. Me thinks you give them way too much credit. They aren’t that organized to have these secret conventions to plot the demise of men that no non female knows about and that all females are sworn to secrecy even to their husbands, sons, fathers and brothers.

To me, toxic masculinity is not a denigration of men but just as you pointed out, a term to describe the actions of a male who acts negatively in an overly macho way. One could suggest we use a similarly derogatory term for women that starts with a B and rhymes with witch.

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

Personally, I call it insecurity. One’s masculinity should not be dictated by their clothing. And just as we call some molds toxic cause they cause disease, I don’t really have a problem with calling their inability to wear a skirt because it threatens their masculinity, toxic. In no way does toxic mold regale all molds to being toxic. Some make great cheese
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