[rad-fem hate-speech redacted] out of style thanks to men in skirts

[Stu]

I don’t think feminists invented this term

I can't say for sure who invented the expression, but it's certainly one that feminists throw around to describe any behaviour they don't like by any male. It's used to denigrate men as a whole.

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

I would call that understandable, because skirts have been appropriated by the female sex for so long that they are now perceived as signifiers of femininity, and no man who values his masculinity would want that to be a matter of any doubt.

One’s masculinity should not be dictated by their clothing.

Not "dictated", but clothing certainly plays a role. as do other factors like hairstyle, voice, gait and so on - things which enable us to distinguish males from females - and that's important.

The danger is that once we attribute any natural human characteristic with the word "toxic", then we have to be willing to apply it across the board and talk about behaviours that could be referred to as "toxic femininity", "toxic blackness", "toxic homosexuality" and so on. I am really uncomfortable with that.

[Coder]

To me, [rad-fem hate-speech redacted] is not a denigration of men but just as you pointed out, a term to describe the actions of a male who acts negatively in an overly macho way. One could suggest we use a similarly derogatory term for women that starts with a B and rhymes with witch.

First off, I don't and have never used the B word when referring to women - I don't belong to the "we" that you refer to (I know you are speaking in generalities, but it's these associations that feel hurtful). Secondly, by attaching the word "toxic" to what most consider an innate trait of men (masculinity), you are forever associating it as something bad and no one goes into the nuances of what is toxic behavior. Anything can be toxic behavior - just read any online screed on what is "wrong with men". We don't have something called toxic femininity - why is that? Why can't we call out overaggressiveness as being just that - name it for what it is.

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

Short-sighted? Silly? Or as you put it - insecurity. But I don't think it is toxic to feel threatened - or even a bad thing to feel threatened - it's what you DO about that threat that matters.

edit - and there's no reason they HAVE to wear a skirt if they refuse to - we aren't trying to force anyone to wear what they don't want to wear. I think we just want them to know it's a choice, a safe choice, and there's nothing wrong with said choice.

[new2skirts]

Skirt tyranny won't endear any guys to the cause... it should be an option if any should wish, even if it's initially celebrities making fashion statements, it's getting the look out there to the masses. Just have to be at reasonable prices for any to take up the skirt, and not to try and call it a "kilt"

[crfriend]

My question here is, "Why are we lending credence to this particular bit of hate speech by discussing it?" We really should be fighting that form of speech tooth and nail rather than grating it credibility. Enough already. Isn't it high time to put this sort of bigotry behind us?

[ScotL]

I don’t think feminists invented this term

I can't say for sure who invented the expression, but it's certainly one that feminists throw around to describe any behaviour they don't like by any male. It's used to denigrate men as a whole.

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

I would call that understandable, because skirts have been appropriated by the female sex for so long that they are now perceived as signifiers of femininity, and no man who values his masculinity would want that to be a matter of any doubt.

One’s masculinity should not be dictated by their clothing.

Not "dictated", but clothing certainly plays a role. as do other factors like hairstyle, voice, gait and so on - things which enable us to distinguish males from females - and that's important.

The danger is that once we attribute any natural human characteristic with the word "toxic", then we have to be willing to apply it across the board and talk about behaviours that could be referred to as "toxic femininity", "toxic blackness", "toxic homosexuality" and so on. I am really uncomfortable with that.

You make an excellent point with the association of the word toxic to otherwise normal traits. I would also hate to see it associated with other traits as you suggest. Toxic femininity could be the B word. Gotta come up with a better word. Cause yes, feminists use it but so do the members of this cafe. So many people use it that it’s stuck. Fight the good fight if you must but it’s here for good. Just like the B word.

I’d rather use my efforts to fight what is meant by [rad-fem hate-speech redacted]. Those egregious behaviors that are over the top machismo that has prompted society to “need” such a word. See Andrew Tate for examples.

But you have a different point I’d like to discuss. To paraphrase, ‘Any man who values his masculinity wants there never to be any doubt as to his masculinity.’ So where does your masculinity lie? Some would say a man so secure in his masculinity doesn’t need others to validate his masculinity. That the need for specific clothing to verify that ‘he’s a man’ is the definition of insecurity.

And what exactly is it anyway. Over the top machismo men who wear bear furs, catch fish with their hands and eat it raw whilst creating their own domicile out of tree trunks they ripped up by hand? Burly construction guys who work ten hour days building the offices where Nancy pant white collar men who have no masculinity work?

Are we really to suggest that there’s only one definition of masculinity? Or femininity for that matter? Isn’t that sort of one of the things we all here reject? That there’s one definition for each gender complete with the approved clothing choices…

Or are we really calling masculinity then just an individual’s self esteem or self worth. Call it femininity if it’s a woman’s self esteem/worth. And if you happen to not fit into the standard gender norms, then your masculinity seems more what we have traditionally called femininity. To which you may have been mocked as not being a “real man.”

[ScotL]

To me, [rad-fem hate-speech redacted] is not a denigration of men but just as you pointed out, a term to describe the actions of a male who acts negatively in an overly macho way. One could suggest we use a similarly derogatory term for women that starts with a B and rhymes with witch.

First off, I don't and have never used the B word when referring to women - I don't belong to the "we" that you refer to (I know you are speaking in generalities, but it's these associations that feel hurtful). Secondly, by attaching the word "toxic" to what most consider an innate trait of men (masculinity), you are forever associating it as something bad and no one goes into the nuances of what is toxic behavior. Anything can be toxic behavior - just read any online screed on what is "wrong with men". We don't have something called toxic femininity - why is that? Why can't we call out overaggressiveness as being just that - name it for what it is.

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

Short-sighted? Silly? Or as you put it - insecurity. But I don't think it is toxic to feel threatened - or even a bad thing to feel threatened - it's what you DO about that threat that matters.

edit - and there's no reason they HAVE to wear a skirt if they refuse to - we aren't trying to force anyone to wear what they don't want to wear. I think we just want them to know it's a choice, a safe choice, and there's nothing wrong with said choice.

Yep, talking in generalities, please do not take offense. Though I’m genuinely impressed you’ve never used the B word.

I have a feeling that B word could have been called “toxic femininity.”

Though I agree, I don’t want to see the word toxic attached to otherwise general traits, language is fluid. And as I pointed out, there’s toxic mold that causes disease and mold that ferments mils to make cheese. There’s nothing wrong per se with the word mold, but the word toxic defines those molds that have negative impacts on humans.

One could make the same generalities for [rad-fem hate-speech redacted]. There’s nothing wrong with masculinity in general but some characteristics that are over the top machismo have negative impacts on humans.

Women often complain that if a man is assertive at work, he’s a go getter. However, if a woman is assertive at work, she’s the B word.

To me all of these words are created because of human nature and our incessant need to talk about everything. But the root problem is we categorize traits according to gender and yet we’ve all known men way more feminine than most women and women may more masculine that most men. Is this not the proverbial shoving of the square peg into the round hole?

And online ‘screed’ (gonna have to look that word up) that make gross over generalizations associated with a human characteristic is just that, wrong before you even finish the title. “What’s wrong with men” is a stupid title meant only to inflame and get people talking about it. In reality, such drivel is nonsense. Flame baiting is the modern day troll under the bridge. It fails the substitution test (replace “men” with any of our other terms like “blacks”, “immigrants” or “homosexuals” and if it sounds bad to your ear, the first sentence is as bad).

The internet is full of such filth written by people with such low self esteem they only feel better by tearing down others. To which I say “illegitimi non carborundum”. Which isn’t really Latin per se but the meaning still holds here.

I steer clear of the small minded who when you point out the gregarious inconsistencies or impossibilities of their arguments have no rational retort. Easiest way I know of to identify BS.

[ScotL]

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

Short-sighted? Silly? Or as you put it - insecurity. But I don't think it is toxic to feel threatened - or even a bad thing to feel threatened - it's what you DO about that threat that matters.

edit - and there's no reason they HAVE to wear a skirt if they refuse to - we aren't trying to force anyone to wear what they don't want to wear. I think we just want them to know it's a choice, a safe choice, and there's nothing wrong with said choice.

Started a new post to clarify this part. I’m not saying it’s toxic to feel threatened. I believe the phrase “[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]” would relate to a guy refusing to wear a skirt when he really wants to because the macho creed says you can’t be a man and wear a skirt. I never meant to imply that anyone would be forced to wear something. Only that the macho creed that prevents a man from doing anything that’s true to themselves could be labeled as toxic. Like a man can’t cry. Can’t wear pink. Can’t be a nurse. Can’t stay at home and raise the kids whilst the women brings home the bacon. All things modern men do but were prevented from doing by a toxic macho creed.

[FLbreezy]

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

I call that "fragile masculinity". If your sense of maleness is so brittle that a piece of clothing or having a certain feeling is going to shatter it, so you reject it at all costs.

There definitely are a few terms for "toxic femininity" that don't involve the B word, but I won't repeat them here, those terms are part of the incel madness. The toxic part is just sh*tty people doing sh*tty things, there's no need to gender it.

[ScotL]

A question though. What would you call the actions of a male who absolutely refuses to don a skirt because it’s a threat to his masculinity?

I call that "fragile masculinity". If your sense of maleness is so brittle that a piece of clothing or having a certain feeling is going to shatter it, so you reject it at all costs.

There definitely are a few terms for "toxic femininity" that don't involve the B word, but I won't repeat them here, those terms are part of the incel madness. The toxic part is just sh*tty people doing sh*tty things, there's no need to gender it.

Wow, that’s perfect. Couldn’t have said it better.

And fragile masculinity is also perfect.

[jamie001]

There was another massacre in California yesterday by a man. Men are the root cause of almost all violent crimes. The only way to resolve this problem is for men to accept that femininity is the way, discard masculinity what is almost useless, and adopt feminine ways, attitudes, and clothing styles. In other words, boy children need to be socialized like girls.

[crfriend]

There was another massacre in California yesterday by a man. Men are the root cause of almost all violent crimes.

NO. Full stop. Men are not the problem. To call men out as the problem is fully as much hate speech as the use of the term "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" which tars and feathers fully 1/2 of the population simply because of what they have between their legs.

The answer is to restore men to their proper place in the world and remove the chains of machismo that have been imposed upon us.

The only way to resolve this problem is for men to accept that femininity is the way, discard masculinity what is almost useless, and adopt feminine ways, attitudes, and clothing styles. In other words, boy children need to be socialized like girls.

Like love and hate, masculinity and femininity are two horns on the same bull. Right now, that bull is very, very lopsided towards the latter and has practically nothing but a stub for the former. Balance needs to be restored. Only with balance will sanity and compassion once again become the norm.

Stop bashing men simply because they have a Y chromosome. Just stop it because it serves no purpose.

I'm just waiting until a woman shoots a place up. It's only a matter of time. That, hopefully, will change the tune a bit -- unfortunately at a high cost.

[Dust]

There was another massacre in California yesterday by a man. Men are the root cause of almost all violent crimes.

NO. Full stop. Men are not the problem. To call men out as the problem is fully as much hate speech as the use of the term "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" which tars and feathers fully 1/2 of the population simply because of what they have between their legs.

Thank you Carl!

The vast majority of men, like the majority of women, are good, decent folks. They do so much good in this world, yet for men, the focus is always on the negative.

Men are good! Have you ever heard that said before? I was well into my twenties before I ever heard something positive said about men that wasn't surrounded by an ugly mess of qualifiers.

I'd heard plenty of positive statements about women, but none about men. And I'd heard plenty of negative unqualified statements about men like the one above. Does anyone ever stop and think about this? About what that negativity and lack of positivity does to young men and boys as they grow up?

I have to think that that is at least partly to blame for the "incel" stuff, and for the violence and mass shootings. Beat someone down long enough, don't be surprised when they lash out.

[ScotL]

There was another massacre in California yesterday by a man. Men are the root cause of almost all violent crimes.

NO. Full stop. Men are not the problem. To call men out as the problem is fully as much hate speech as the use of the term "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" which tars and feathers fully 1/2 of the population simply because of what they have between their legs.

The answer is to restore men to their proper place in the world and remove the chains of machismo that have been imposed upon us.

The only way to resolve this problem is for men to accept that femininity is the way, discard masculinity what is almost useless, and adopt feminine ways, attitudes, and clothing styles. In other words, boy children need to be socialized like girls.

Like love and hate, masculinity and femininity are two horns on the same bull. Right now, that bull is very, very lopsided towards the latter and has practically nothing but a stub for the former. Balance needs to be restored. Only with balance will sanity and compassion once again become the norm.

Stop bashing men simply because they have a Y chromosome. Just stop it because it serves no purpose.

I'm just waiting until a woman shoots a place up. It's only a matter of time. That, hopefully, will change the tune a bit -- unfortunately at a high cost.

I think suggesting “love” and “hate” are like “men” and “women” is not what you mean. The first two words are opposites but the last two are not.

I think we need to all stop generalizing actions of one person on shared characteristics of others. Yes more men shoot people but that does not mean men are bad.

In my opinion, men have been under a lot of pressure to confirm to an old ideal that’s always been a fantasy (eg machismo John Wayne bread winner) and now the pressure has cracked a few.

It’s an over generalization to suggest men wearing skirts will solve this problem. That won’t. But freeing men from these overbearing requirements on how to be a real man would.

[ScotL]

There was another massacre in California yesterday by a man. Men are the root cause of almost all violent crimes. The only way to resolve this problem is for men to accept that femininity is the way, discard masculinity what is almost useless, and adopt feminine ways, attitudes, and clothing styles. In other words, boy children need to be socialized like girls.

You are entitled to your opinion. But I don’t think masculinity is the problem nor do I feel femininity is the answer. I think FLbreezy said it best when he said [rad-fem hate-speech redacted] or toxic femininity is sh!tty people doing sh!tty things. If a man does it, it’s called [rad-fem hate-speech redacted] if it conforms to over the top machismo.

To me, the answer is to let people be themselves without judging them. Of course they can’t be pedophiles or serial killers or other things like that, but what’s wrong with letting people just be themselves

[STEVIE]

I'm just waiting until a woman shoots a place up. It's only a matter of time. That, hopefully, will change the tune a bit -- unfortunately at a high cost.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/brenda-ann-spencer

Hi, and it happened because she did not like Mondays.
Toxic behaviour is human behaviour.
How we behave toward and treat each other has little basis in gender.
It amazes me just how "creatively" we invent new ways to inflict general nastiness on each other.
Steve.