Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Ray
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Ray »

jamie001 wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:00 am There was another massacre in California yesterday by a man. Men are the root cause of almost all violent crimes. The only way to resolve this problem is for men to accept that femininity is the way, discard masculinity what is almost useless, and adopt feminine ways, attitudes, and clothing styles. In other words, boy children need to be socialized like girls.
Three mass shootings in eight days - just in California.

Ask yourself this. In the US, there were 647 mass shootings (4+ killed) in 2022. The U.K. had one over the same period. On a population like for like basis, that’s 5 shootings v 647.

Both countries have the same proportion of men.

I would suggest that being male isn’t the main issue here, so before we all rush to put on our pretty frocks and lacy stuff, maybe we should ask some searching questions of ourselves first?
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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That’s about access to guns and gun culture, nothing else. In the UK most nut jobs can’t get hold of a gun.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Barleymower »

The women I know just don't like handling guns. They would much rather tear you down with words and walk away laughing. It's a skill men dont have.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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Barleymower wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:49 pmThe women I know just don't like handling guns. They would much rather tear you down with words and walk away laughing. It's a skill men dont have.
Men can be surprisingly good with words, but we usually deploy them differently. Where women will sometimes use wounds to gratuitously wound someone else, guys usually won't unless it's part of the usual "give and take" that guys get into. I had a great chat with a fellow computer-historian friend last night in Providence who has as sharp a tongue as I have and it was a festival of "shots" -- but always in good humour. I still recall vividly my late ex- sometimes taking a shot at me simply to inflict pain, and I never understood why. All I knew is that it hurt. When guys engage in that, it's usually in fun (as was last night).

One of the things I detest about "gun culture" as it seems to exist in the USA is that it's insanely macho, and that caused me some trouble when I was taking the classes that'd allow me to get my license. It bordered on nasty a lot of the time, and there's no reason for that, and I took a lot of grief that the "studlier guys" didn't get. It didn't matter, I could shoot better than most of them -- and hilariously can shoot just as well right- or left- handed (which blew the instructors' minds)

The main problems as I see them in the US are (1) a blurring of the line between reality and fantasy, (2) a loss of compassion for others, and (3) an abject denial of the reality of mental health issues and what those can cause. The USA has always had a violent culture, and that's been exploited to the point of violence becoming normal rather than rare. Compassion left the building in the 1980s during the swing to the hard-right and the greed-driven modern world where exhibiting compassion marked one as a loser. And there remains a very, very powerful stigma regarding mental health that keeps people from seeking guidance and help -- and sometimes seeking help will force a life-change and not for the better! Before he passed in '21, I was good friends with a retired mental health counsellor, and the miserable state of things in the USA was a frequent topic of fruitful conversation. (I have interesting friends, and I try to surround myself with folks who are smarter than I.)

And I did not recall the story of Brenda Ann Spencer. It's strange to consider that she set the stage for all the copy-cat idiocy of the modern day. A woman. "Who'd a thunk it?!"
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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crfriend wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:36 pm
Barleymower wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:49 pmThe women I know just don't like handling guns. They would much rather tear you down with words and walk away laughing. It's a skill men dont have.
Men can be surprisingly good with words, but we usually deploy them differently. Where women will sometimes use wounds to gratuitously wound someone else, guys usually won't unless it's part of the usual "give and take" that guys get into. I had a great chat with a fellow computer-historian friend last night in Providence who has as sharp a tongue as I have and it was a festival of "shots" -- but always in good humour. I still recall vividly my late ex- sometimes taking a shot at me simply to inflict pain, and I never understood why. All I knew is that it hurt. When guys engage in that, it's usually in fun (as was last night).

One of the things I detest about "gun culture" as it seems to exist in the USA is that it's insanely macho, and that caused me some trouble when I was taking the classes that'd allow me to get my license. It bordered on nasty a lot of the time, and there's no reason for that, and I took a lot of grief that the "studlier guys" didn't get. It didn't matter, I could shoot better than most of them -- and hilariously can shoot just as well right- or left- handed (which blew the instructors' minds)

The main problems as I see them in the US are (1) a blurring of the line between reality and fantasy, (2) a loss of compassion for others, and (3) an abject denial of the reality of mental health issues and what those can cause. The USA has always had a violent culture, and that's been exploited to the point of violence becoming normal rather than rare. Compassion left the building in the 1980s during the swing to the hard-right and the greed-driven modern world where exhibiting compassion marked one as a loser. And there remains a very, very powerful stigma regarding mental health that keeps people from seeking guidance and help -- and sometimes seeking help will force a life-change and not for the better! Before he passed in '21, I was good friends with a retired mental health counsellor, and the miserable state of things in the USA was a frequent topic of fruitful conversation. (I have interesting friends, and I try to surround myself with folks who are smarter than I.)

And I did not recall the story of Brenda Ann Spencer. It's strange to consider that she set the stage for all the copy-cat idiocy of the modern day. A woman. "Who'd a thunk it?!"
I was speaking slightly tongue in cheek. We are equipped to argue with women but in some circles its considered ungentlemanly... mostly. Tempers flare and things get said. You are right most men don't wound for the sake of it.
The picture you paint of gun ownership in the USA is not a pretty one. There are one or two macho types at my shooting ground but mostly the guys are OK. Although not about to dress in a skirt anytime soon.
When I got my licence I was visited by the local constabulary firearms officer. We had a chat over a cup of tea and he checked my gun cabinet. Now I renew online every five years.
I need to decide what to wear out tomorrow. I can't just wear the same everyday?
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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Barleymower wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:50 pmThe picture you paint of gun ownership in the USA is not a pretty one. There are one or two macho types at my shooting ground but mostly the guys are OK. Although not about to dress in a skirt anytime soon.
It's interesting to note that I am friends with a decent number of "owners" (almost all or my professional computing colleagues) and all of them know me for who I am, skirts and all --and not a one of 'em has a problem with that. So that may have been the "public face" I was dealing with at the time. I can't say for sure. Everybody who I know who has weaponry is level-headed and down-to-earth -- which is a large blessing. It's just the outward face that bothers me.
I need to decide what to wear out tomorrow. I can't just wear the same everyday?
That question frequently vexes me, especially in this era of "goblin-mode" COVID times and "work from home" -- especially as I've been confined by snowfall for several days! I've got a nasty case of "cabin fever"!
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Uncle Al »

OK - MY $.02 worth is
Guns are not a problem or THE problem. Guns(any type)
are a TOOL, used to accomplish a goal. That goal may be
hunting, sport shooting or self protection.

So far, these comments, relating to guns, are coming from
the original FEAR MONGERS who try to, in any way possible,
CONTROL others. CRIMINALS will be criminals no matter what
you may think. A criminal will hide behind 'good deeds' until
they can/want to lash out.

Again, a gun is a tool, just like a garden rake, sledge hammer, table
knife, baseball bat, tire iron, ballpoint pen or axe(Lizzie Borden).
The ultimate use of an 'Object' is up to the person using the object.

"Gun Control" makes it a crime to even own a gun. The ultimate
goal of any 'control group' is, just that - CONTROL THE PEOPLE
One of the first things a Tyrannical Government will try to do is
remove all types of protection from the people. This includes
guns, which may be used against a Tyrannical Government.
History has proven that concept, Germany 1938, but thankfully,
was overturned by many friends and helpful countries.
(How do you think the C.C.P. stays in power :?: They keep
the population from having any way to protect themselves. )

Crime goes down when the populace is open, or concealed, carrying guns.
A person thinks twice about committing a criminal act, knowing that they
may lose their life in doing so.

At 72 years of age, I feel safer, knowing a law abiding citizen is potentially
carrying a concealed weapon, when in a potentially hazardous area of any city.

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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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Uncle Al wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:05 am OK - MY $.02 worth is
Guns are not a problem or THE problem. Guns(any type)
are a TOOL, used to accomplish a goal. That goal may be
hunting, sport shooting or self protection.
Guns that fire many rounds in a short period of time are tools designed to kill many people in a short period of time. We don't need such tools. Canada, with a lot better gun control, has a lot fewer gun deaths per capita.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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There are likely lots of good points to be made from here on out on the problems the USA has with its "weapons issue", but let's not allow that to contaminate the primary focus of the forum. There are lots of places to better argue the issue.

It's rare I state such a thing, but I feel that it's come time to. Not only in my mind, but in my heart.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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crfriend wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:22 pm
Barleymower wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:50 pmThe picture you paint of gun ownership in the USA is not a pretty one. There are one or two macho types at my shooting ground but mostly the guys are OK. Although not about to dress in a skirt anytime soon.
It's interesting to note that I am friends with a decent number of "owners" (almost all or my professional computing colleagues) and all of them know me for who I am, skirts and all --and not a one of 'em has a problem with that. So that may have been the "public face" I was dealing with at the time. I can't say for sure. Everybody who I know who has weaponry is level-headed and down-to-earth -- which is a large blessing. It's just the outward face that bothers me.
I need to decide what to wear out tomorrow. I can't just wear the same everyday?
That question frequently vexes me, especially in this era of "goblin-mode" COVID times and "work from home" -- especially as I've been confined by snowfall for several days! I've got a nasty case of "cabin fever"!
Carl, I hope the snow is not piled up against your door with you inside waiting for spring!

Actually I reported back to the group a while back that I had been seen out and about by the shooting club and one man 'John' said "where's your skirt Adrian?" HA HA HA. I replied "i'm not wearing it today John" and the conversation died there and then. Word travels fast so I expect those who are interested know. John himself afterwards was fine and is his usual self. I take the attitude that only men who have problem with themselves would have a problem with me. I shoot in trousers. I only shoot clays and not the best shot (althougth I have my moments of glory :)), Middle ranking you might say. Anyway I need to concentrate and can do without a skirt flapping around.

I went into school with the grey pleated skirt with V neck and I was happy to stand proud in my chosen clothes. FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER a older lady looked at me and said "I hope you have boxers on with that". I said I have and I could probably do with some tights. Made my day.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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Barleymower wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:29 amCarl, I hope the snow is not piled up against your door with you inside waiting for spring!
It's not a problem with the doors being blocked, it's a problem with a holly bush that was severely weighted down with wet heavy snow that was across my driveway and blocked me in my garage -- that, and "The Hill From Hell" I have to deal with to get back in.
Actually I reported back to the group a while back that I had been seen out and about by the shooting club and one man 'John' said "where's your skirt Adrian?" HA HA HA. I replied "i'm not wearing it today John" and the conversation died there and then. Word travels fast so I expect those who are interested know.
Word certainly travels quickly about "oddities" -- and we certainly count as one of those as in, "not something you see every day!" That goes as part of the price of freedom. The key is how we comport ourselves and interact with others (no matter what we may be wearing!).
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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I know that many of you SkirtCafe members here believe that the problem is easy access to guns and other firearms in the United States. It is not the root of the problem. Here is a point to ponder:

90 percent of violent crimes are committed by men! There is no denying this fact. This indicates that men have very strong propencity toward violence. INMHO this is a result of how men are socialized. Men are taught that it is ok to be aggressive and physical from a young age and to reject anything remotely feminine including feminine ways of resolving conflicts.

Men have more issues with mental illness. This is because men are taught that they need to suppress half of their psyche. Men are taught that they are not permitted any feminine thoughts or inclinations and that anything feminine is to be avoided. They are shamed if they do not conform to this toxic masculinity. On the other hand, women are encouraged to be a "complete person" by embracing both the feminine and masculine energies. No wonder men have psychologies problem and lash out with violence.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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jamie001 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:10 pm90 percent of violent crimes are committed by men! There is no denying this fact. This indicates that men have very strong propencity toward violence. INMHO this is a result of how men are socialized. Men are taught that it is ok to be aggressive and physical from a young age and to reject anything remotely feminine including feminine ways of resolving conflicts.
s/feminine/civilised/g -- Problem solved. It's not about masculinity vs. femininity; it's a cultural problem that can be solved by removing the straitjacket that modern men have been shoved into.
Men have more issues with mental illness. This is because men are taught that they need to suppress half of their psyche. Men are taught that they are not permitted any feminine thoughts or inclinations and that anything feminine is to be avoided. They are shamed if they do not conform to this toxic masculinity. On the other hand, women are encouraged to be a "complete person" by embracing both the feminine and masculine energies. No wonder men have psychologies problem and lash out with violence.
See above. Remove the straitjacket and things will likely resolve in time. But it takes a while for wounds to heal, and men have been dealt quite a few over the past few decades.

Also, let's get rid of the stigma of mental illness. That'd be a huge step. Men and women are equally screwed up with this problem.

The point is that we don't need to turn men into ersatz-women, any more than women should have been turned into ersatz-men. The two need to occupy the same space together and in harmony -- as complements to one another, not always engaged in some tort of rat-race struggle.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

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jamie001 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:10 pm I know that many of you SkirtCafe members here believe that the problem is easy access to guns and other firearms in the United States. It is not the root of the problem. Here is a point to ponder:

90 percent of violent crimes are committed by men! There is no denying this fact. This indicates that men have very strong propencity toward violence. INMHO this is a result of how men are socialized. Men are taught that it is ok to be aggressive and physical from a young age and to reject anything remotely feminine including feminine ways of resolving conflicts.

Men have more issues with mental illness. This is because men are taught that they need to suppress half of their psyche. Men are taught that they are not permitted any feminine thoughts or inclinations and that anything feminine is to be avoided. They are shamed if they do not conform to this toxic masculinity. On the other hand, women are encouraged to be a "complete person" by embracing both the feminine and masculine energies. No wonder men have psychologies problem and lash out with violence.
This an accepted truth ie men violent, women not violent. I don't see it entirely that way. What did Maggie Thatcher do? Take us to war to win an election. Women behind the wheel will cut you up as much as a man.
A little story: my birth Dad moved to America soon after I was born, I have a step dad, he's a good man he's my Dad. Back in about 1975 my mum and dad borrowed some money and didn't make the payments. The lender sent around some men to "discuss" payments. They knocked on the door and met Bob my dad. "Oh hello bob" they said, chatted and went on their way. My Dad was a bit of a local rogue. Later in the 80s my sister accused him of "overstepping the mark". Maybe he did, maybe he didn't I'll never know. I know my mum was difficult and I never got a chance to sort out our issues before she died, maybe my sister needed to say, maybe she wanted to injure again I'll never know. After my sister said what she said; my mum was relentless with him. Ten years later he had a breakdown (panic attacks). Point is women don't always lash out with fists and guns but the damage they do can be just as damaging. I'm witness to that.
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Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Ray »

Al - FFS, just calm down. Live your little perversion with weapons. Other countries manage just fine without firearms to defend their feeble insecurities.

Jamie - FFS, get real. A huge amount of cultures around the world exhibit near-impeccable behaviour of men. You don’t see Japanese red necks. You don’t see Tutsi tribes aggressively asserting their masculinity. You live in the USA - a culture which DOES have so much toxic masculinity. Don’t assume the rest of the world is like you. It’s not.

Case in point. I met a client today. His 30yo son was there. He lived in Louisiana for 5 years. His views?

1. Americans are racist. They have segregated communities. What?!

2. Americans have very thin skins. He was asked by a local in a bar, “what to you think of Trump?”. He was honest, and told the locsl lad that in his view, Trump was an idiot. What happens? The local says,” outside, now”. Just because the Brit says Trump’s an idiot, the guy takes offence. Lesson - if you don’t want candour in responses, don’t bloody ask the question. Stupid naked aggression. Not needed. You won’t get that in the U.K. or many other countries.

3. Americans are ignorant.

These are not my words. They came from a Brit who gave up living in the USA because he thought it wad screwed up. Jamie001 - try Europe before you get us all in nail polish and aprons. There are different expressions of masculinity round the world, and most are actually okay.

Harsh words I know - but I’m feeding back not just my views (top part of this post) but also a very recent expression of views from someone who lived long enough in the USA to frame his views with authority and experience.

Rant over ;-)
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