Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Post Reply
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14431
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by crfriend »

Uncle Al wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:31 pmNow - - May we all agree that this thread is heading into a heated battle,
possibly forcing a lock-down :?:

May we leave this thread/topic alone, and let it die in peace :?:
I've been tempted more than a few times to put the spike through it, but some good points have been made, both from a biological point of view and the notion that management and control of our "base urges" (including things like aggression and anger) is woefully lacking in some cultures (most notably the USA) which seem to be in a state of "arrested development" where there are no safety-valves or harmless releases open to men (this is part and parcel of the "macho" box").

I will state, however, that trying to turn men into 4th-rate women will fail, and it will fail in grand fashion. The thesis is simply fatally flawed because it doesn't take evolution into account -- and we have to deal with that whether we like it or not.

In short, much more rancour about the matter will get the thread locked and likely pushed into the Cesspool.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
jamie001
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:09 am

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by jamie001 »

The problem that is not being acknowledged by society is the double standard. For example, little Jane likes to play with trucks and footballs, Her parents know that she is a Tomboy so that encourage her and even buy toy trucks and a football for her. On their other hand, if little Johnny wants to play with dolls and makeup, all hell breaks loose! At minimum little Johnny will be told to "act like a man" and then boys do not play with dolls and makeup. It is even possible that little Johnny will be physically punished for his behavior, or he may even be killed by the father as happened here in California when a little boy repeatedly exhibited feminine behavior. The trial for this one is currently underway.

If a girl wants to do masculine activities in this society she is encourage. Her parents have no problem allowing her be be tomboys and to partake in masculine activities. In the USA, girls can join the Boy Scouts, buy why can't boys join the Girl Scouts?Therefore she is being encouraged toward masculine behavior. If a boy wants to partake in feminine activities, he is disciplined or the feminine tendencies are beat out of him by his family and/or peers! He may even be killed.

Here on skirt cafe, the majority of members do not acknowledge that wearing skirts and other items intended for women is "feminine" and therefore we have feminine tendencies and should acknowledge them. From my experience here on the Cafe, the majority of men want to have their cake and eat it too. In other words, they want to wear skirts and still identify has "macho dudes". You can't do both! When women play football, or join the Boy Scouts, that are entertaining their masculine tendencies and readily admit that they are tomboys and that they have masculine tendencies. When men wear skirts, they should admit that they are Jane Girls or Sissies and there is nothing wrong with being a Jane Girl or a Sissy.

For men wearing skirts and other feminine items to make progress, we need to admit that we are doing something that is inherently feminine and that wearing skirts and other women's clothing expresses our feminine nature, essentially the girl within us. We all have masculine and feminine sides and we need to acknowledge and express both. On the other hand, saying "I am a macho man" and I wear skirts and other women's clothing with not advance the men wearing skirts cause. You can't have you cake and eat it too! Women have learned this several decades ago.
User avatar
Jim
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1551
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:39 am
Location: Northern Illinois, USA

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Jim »

Jamie, your belief system is just different from mine. I don't believe that things are inherently masculine or feminine. A skirt or dolls aren't just for females nor are tools, construction, and competence in problem-solving inherently masculine. As a Christian, I believe with Paul "...there is no more ... male or female..." Let's just drop those synthetic divisions.
pelmut
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1923
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by pelmut »

Jim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:02 pm Jamie, your belief system is just different from mine...
I'm not sure he said that was what he believed, but it is what the majority of parents in the UK and US believe.  We know it is wrong, but we aren't the ones who are bringing up the next generation of children and aren't in a position to influence them against their parents' mistaken wishes.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Coder »

Jim wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:02 pm Let's just drop those synthetic divisions.
Yes, let's!

I think it's sexist to think that wearing skirts is a feminine act - we know from cultures around the world that skirts have been worn by both genders, and at some level they are just clothes. Additionally, I don't see guys around here trying to "be macho" while wearing skirts. What I do see, is a lot of guys saying "hey, I'm still me, just wearing a skirt". But if guys want to "be macho" and wear a skirt, what of that? Why police that mindset? As long as their version of macho doesn't involve disparaging/hurting others, it's not our place to tell people how to live (with the exception of asking them to be good people).

As for a "essentially the girl within us"? Really? I don't even know what to say.

The bigger point you (jamie001) are making is correct though. The double standard is wrong - we shouldn't be policing kids like we do - let kids play with what they find interest in - and if a guy is a bit feminine so be it. This should even be the way we treat each other as adults. There's nothing inherently wrong with that - but it also isn't crucial. What's more crucial is not shaming people for being themselves, whether they are masculine, feminine, or somewhere in-between.
Offkilter69
Distinguished Member
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:44 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Offkilter69 »

Coder wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:19 pm


I think it's sexist to think that wearing skirts is a feminine act - we know from cultures around the world that skirts have been worn by both genders, and at some level they are just clothes. Additionally, I don't see guys around here trying to "be macho" while wearing skirts. What I do see, is a lot of guys saying "hey, I'm still me, just wearing a skirt". But if guys want to "be macho" and wear a skirt, what of that? Why police that mindset? As long as their version of macho doesn't involve disparaging/hurting others, it's not our place to tell people how to live (with the exception of asking them to be good people).

As for a "essentially the girl within us"? Really? I don't even know what to say.

The bigger point you (jamie001) are making is correct though. The double standard is wrong - we shouldn't be policing kids like we do - let kids play with what they find interest in - and if a guy is a bit feminine so be it. This should even be the way we treat each other as adults. There's nothing inherently wrong with that - but it also isn't crucial. What's more crucial is not shaming people for being themselves, whether they are masculine, feminine, or somewhere in-between.
I agree. Sexism, from both females and males, is perhaps the biggest roadblock to ending asinine fashion rules. Wearing a skirt doesn’t necessarily mean a guy is embracing his “inner girl”.
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by ScotL »

Offkilter69 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:10 pm
Wearing a skirt doesn’t necessarily mean a guy is embracing his “inner girl”.
Brilliantly said. To suggest a man has to be embracing his feminine side to wear a skirt mandates that a skirt is a feminine article of clothing.

I can paraphrase some famous guy who wore skirts/dresses by stating I don’t wear women’s clothing, I bought them, they are mine.
rode_kater
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:46 pm

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by rode_kater »

ScotL wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:20 am
Offkilter69 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:10 pm
Wearing a skirt doesn’t necessarily mean a guy is embracing his “inner girl”.
Brilliantly said. To suggest a man has to be embracing his feminine side to wear a skirt mandates that a skirt is a feminine article of clothing.
But conversely, wearing a skirt doesn't mean a guy isn't embracing their "inner girl".

How people feel is a personal thing, and why they wears skirts doubly so. If some person embracing their feminine side requires them to wear a skirt, so be it.
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2649
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by Coder »

rode_kater wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:45 pm How people feel is a personal thing, and why they wears skirts doubly so. If some person embracing their feminine side requires them to wear a skirt, so be it.
Correct - I don't think we are saying no one is embracing a feminine side - just that you can't say it applies to everyone. The original quote that spurred this discussion:
we need to admit that we are doing something that is inherently feminine and that wearing skirts and other women's clothing expresses our feminine nature, essentially the girl within us.
First off, I would feel better if it was phrased as "the woman within us". Secondly, this statement reads that all of us are lying to ourselves -"we need to admit". I just spent the day at work in a skirt, and didn't "feel different" from my normal self. Oh, I was a bit more self-conscious, and had a slight level of worry. But it didn't fundamentally change me - I was just me being me. For me, anyways, clothing doesn't change me, although some might want to claim I'm "performing femininity". They can think that, but that's on them.

I guess my frustration - not aimed at anyone here - is that it feels like the world was on the cusp of getting over gendered clothing stereotypes... and we bring these very regressive ideas here and I see them creeping into other discussions on reddit. Am I wrong?
Last edited by Coder on Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
ScotL
Chatbot
Posts: 1459
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: Toxic masculinity out of style thanks to men in skirts

Post by ScotL »

rode_kater wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:45 pm
ScotL wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:20 am
Offkilter69 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:10 pm
Wearing a skirt doesn’t necessarily mean a guy is embracing his “inner girl”.
Brilliantly said. To suggest a man has to be embracing his feminine side to wear a skirt mandates that a skirt is a feminine article of clothing.
But conversely, wearing a skirt doesn't mean a guy isn't embracing their "inner girl".

How people feel is a personal thing, and why they wears skirts doubly so. If some person embracing their feminine side requires them to wear a skirt, so be it.
Agreed. The wearing of an article of clothing can be done for every reason under the sun. In a world where we do not believe in magic, isn’t it ironic that some believe the simple donning of a magic tapestry around the waist transforms one into something completely different that not the wearer, but the beholder knows.
Post Reply