On family and spouses "negative" reactions, emotion

[Coder]

The other day I observed my sister and mom discussing makeup. Now, my mom only uses makeup as a way to even out her skin, my sister goes a bit further but isn't flamboyant with it. Neither of them are big on makeup, and use it sparingly. But the conversations wasn't really about makeup per-se. There was an emotional feeling to it. It was almost an excuse to find something to talk about.

This got me thinking about clothes, skirts in particular, and what they might represent to women. I wonder if there is some kind of emotional bond that the skirt carries, that they are afraid of "letting go" of or what it might mean. That is, by letting their "guy" wear a skirt, that bond they normally would share with a daughter, sister, or mom is projected onto a man. And it's a different kind of relationship - not of "true love" but familial love and shared bonding via biological similarity. "True love" doesn't work with a parent-child relationship - but there may be similar mechanisms at play - as a mom-son vs mom-daughter relationship is different. We are just only talking clothes - but I still think clothes mean a lot to people.

The other angle - still related to emotion - is the idea of the skirt as a "uniform". I can't quite lose the idea that the skirt must represent a "uniform of womanhood" to some people, and they see men wearing it as a threat to the status quo. I think these people are far and few between - but I think this is the predominant issue I face with my family.

[Midas]

I don’t think so. If women had an emotional bond to the skirt they would be more likely to wear one as opposed to jeans, trousers or the now ubiquitous and ugly leggings.

[Barleymower]

The other day I observed my sister and mom discussing makeup. Now, my mom only uses makeup as a way to even out her skin, my sister goes a bit further but isn't flamboyant with it. Neither of them are big on makeup, and use it sparingly. But the conversations wasn't really about makeup per-se. There was an emotional feeling to it. It was almost an excuse to find something to talk about.

This got me thinking about clothes, skirts in particular, and what they might represent to women. I wonder if there is some kind of emotional bond that the skirt carries, that they are afraid of "letting go" of or what it might mean. That is, by letting their "guy" wear a skirt, that bond they normally would share with a daughter, sister, or mom is projected onto a man. And it's a different kind of relationship - not of "true love" but familial love and shared bonding via biological similarity. "True love" doesn't work with a parent-child relationship - but there may be similar mechanisms at play - as a mom-son vs mom-daughter relationship is different. We are just only talking clothes - but I still think clothes mean a lot to people.

The other angle - still related to emotion - is the idea of the skirt as a "uniform". I can't quite lose the idea that the skirt must represent a "uniform of womanhood" to some people, and they see men wearing it as a threat to the status quo. I think these people are far and few between - but I think this is the predominant issue I face with my family.

I think you are right Coder. You could use the word uniform or you can say 'belonging'. The skirt needs to be released from women for men to take it and they are not letting go.

As for the "not my man" syndrome: she is my wife and I her husband but hold no possession over her and she is quick to remind me if I would try. She has no possession over me either. I really don't want to aknowledge "what I need to take into account" type conversations. I make my own decisions it is part of being a man.

[Coder]

I think you are right Coder. You could use the word uniform or you can say 'belonging'. The skirt needs to be released from women for men to take it and they are not letting go.

Yes - "belonging" is a far better word.

[Stevej180]

The other angle - still related to emotion - is the idea of the skirt as a "uniform". I can't quite lose the idea that the skirt must represent a "uniform of womanhood" to some people, and they see men wearing it as a threat to the status quo. I think these people are far and few between - but I think this is the predominant issue I face with my family.

I know you put uniform in quotes, but in many cultures it is quite literally a uniform. In the UK for example, it's typical for girls to wear skirts (often kilts) throughout high school. There are two consequences that flow from this - the obvious that throughout the teenage years the skirt is seen on and comes to represent girls/femininity, since the top half of the uniform is otherwise similar between boys and girls.

The second is that after they finish (according to my 20-something daughter) the first thing they want to do is throw the skirts away and reach for jeans. Skirts end up being associated only with very formal occasions.

So the skirt here is absolutely a distinguishing feature between the genders and a signifier of femininity.

[STEVIE]

So the skirt here is absolutely a distinguishing feature between the genders and a signifier of femininity.

Absolutely Stevej, and it has nothing to do with men, women, definitions or any of the other possibilities.
It really is a societal mindset and not exclusive to the UK either.
The problem lies in the fact that heterosexual females do not generally see a skirted hetero male as a good potential partner.
That is not necessarily even a conscious decision, but an instinct borne of that mindset.
The challenge facing MIS is to change that status quo by any means available to us.
For sure, faint hearts and shrinking violets just won't cut it.
Steve.

[Coder]

I know you put uniform in quotes, but in many cultures it is quite literally a uniform. In the UK for example, it's typical for girls to wear skirts (often kilts) throughout high school. There are two consequences that flow from this - the obvious that throughout the teenage years the skirt is seen on and comes to represent girls/femininity, since the top half of the uniform is otherwise similar between boys and girls.

The second is that after they finish (according to my 20-something daughter) the first thing they want to do is throw the skirts away and reach for jeans. Skirts end up being associated only with very formal occasions.

So the skirt here is absolutely a distinguishing feature between the genders and a signifier of femininity.

True, though in the US not so much except at private schools (including charter schools). And I forgot the (now lost to time) practice of breeching. Boys at a young age used to wear dresses (or dress-like garments) and when they were a little bit older (Wikipedia says between 2 and 8 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)) would start wearing pants. Though it was born out of convenience, no doubt people used this occasion as a milestone to mark growing up.

So the skirt here is absolutely a distinguishing feature between the genders and a signifier of femininity.

Absolutely Stevej, and it has nothing to do with men, women, definitions or any of the other possibilities.
It really is a societal mindset and not exclusive to the UK either.
The problem lies in the fact that heterosexual females do not generally see a skirted hetero male as a good potential partner.
That is not necessarily even a conscious decision, but an instinct borne of that mindset.
The challenge facing MIS is to change that status quo by any means available to us.
For sure, faint hearts and shrinking violets just won't cut it.

I think males have that reaction as well, but obviously in a different way. There may be perceptions of weakness, "otherness", and other "esses" that are considered "negative" in men in today's society.

I've come to accept that skirts = femininity even if I strive to wear "masculine" style skirts. Mainly it's performative for others - to dampen the cognitive dissonance they may feel. It also calms my nerves and helps me avoid the "They're All Gonna Laugh at You!" fears I have (line stolen from a 1993 album of the same name). Point of fact, no one has laughed at me yet whilst skirted, so those fears are unfounded, at least for where I live/work.

I am curious Stevie, what you meant by:

Absolutely Stevej, and it has nothing to do with men, women, definitions or any of the other possibilities.
It really is a societal mindset and not exclusive to the UK either.
The problem lies in the fact that heterosexual females do not generally see a skirted hetero male as a good potential partner.
That is not necessarily even a conscious decision, but an instinct borne of that mindset.

What is the mindset? That skirt = signifier of femininity? Or it isn't desirable to be feminine - at least for a man? Or both of those? Genuinely curious.

[Dust]

I think Coder is onto something. I've had similar thoughts rolling around my head for a while. I don't think any of it is conscious for most women, but on a subconscious level things like skirts and dresses are special to at least some of them. Even if they rarely, if ever, wear them, it's still something special in their minds. Maybe more so because they only get them out for special occasions.

The idea of the skirt as a female "uniform" is also one to note. Wearing a uniform that isn't yours will always raise the ire of some who have "earned the right" to wear it. Military uniforms worn by those who haven't served, even when worn for good reason, will rub many the wrong way. (Remember the scene in Hunt for Red October where the Navy guys are discussing Jack Ryan's wearing of the Navy uniform as a CIA analyst trying to "keep a low profile" while in the fleet?) While women didn't do anything to earn their womanhood in the way a man has to prove himself, there is the idea that women deal with certain things as women and girls that men can't understand. This also raises the issue of men risking losing that earned (and therefore precarious) title of "Real Man (TM)" which is mostly another, albeit related, topic.

Women are not a monolith, however, so this would only be some women.

I've also met some women who almost resent skirts and dresses, and never wear them. For this group, they hate them so much that anyone who isn't expected to wear them going against the grain of society to wear one makes no sense. The cognitive disconnect for them is real.

And of course, some women are perfectly fine with men in skirts. Or are simply and genuinely curious about it.

[STEVIE]

What is the mindset? That skirt = signifier of femininity

Yes, Coder, I do believe that is true in the minds of most inhabitants of the western world and is not a judgement of the "desirability" of being feminine or indeed masculine.
The problem for MIS is that the same inhabitants do not welcome non-conformity in day-to-day life.
Take the recent discussion on the derivations and meanings of "skirt". The world and his dog have likely never checked it in a dictionary because they already "know" what it means. That is also assuming they are literate in the first place too.
To be frank, I am not sure that I ever had prior to that minor spat.
Your point about "breeching" is also a valid one. Babies were seen as agender to a point when boys were trousered in one way or another.
The indoctrination of the skirt=feminine starts there and today it is even more insidious, how many western mothers would put "pretty pink" clothes on a new-born boy?
By the time of school age, most kids have a perfectly formed idea of what they are "allowed" to wear. Worse still, I believe that many of them would be just as afraid to express a different preference as I was 60 years ago.
If by being out, loud and proud in a skirt allays that fear for just one of those kids, I will be happy enough.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Sucking eggs here but obviously there are masculine and feminine qualities in both sexes. Men should enjoy their softer sides and well as women their harder sides.

I think this is more about the war on men, men as second class citizens.

[rivegauche]

I have written a chapter for a forthcoming book on my own relationship with skirts and dresses that compares mine with the way some women feel about them. The key word there is some. Unlike most of those of this site, I also dress fully, though adopting make up and a wig only for going out. I have myself used the word "otherness" to describe the sensation of doing up the back zip of a dress. I do not identify as a woman and cannot imagine how it is to feel feminine. I feel sure that women who love clothes have a very different relationship with them, and as far as I can discern the feedback they get from other women on their outfits is very important indeed and positive feedback makes them feel good about themselves. I also like being told my dress is lovely or that I look lovely but I know it isn't the same. I think both genders generate dopamines from wearing clothes that make them feel good, but the variety of skirts and dresses generates more of these than typical menswear.

[ScotL]

My first adventure wearing a kilt was mind blowing. I wire a plain black kilt in a dead town far from anyone I’d ever meet again. I figured I’d slip around sort of undetected.

Nope.

I got multiple, spontaneous compliments from women that were so elating to hear, I felt like I got why people fish for compliments. It absolutely makes you feel better.

[Ozdelights]

Spontaneous compliments would certainly lift the spirits and encourage you to keep going.

[GerdG]

In the UK for example, it's typical for girls to wear skirts (often kilts) throughout high school. There are two consequences that flow from this - the obvious that throughout the teenage years the skirt is seen on and comes to represent girls/femininity, since the top half of the uniform is otherwise similar between boys and girls.

The second is that after they finish (according to my 20-something daughter) the first thing they want to do is throw the skirts away and reach for jeans. Skirts end up being associated only with very formal occasions.

So the skirt here is absolutely a distinguishing feature between the genders and a signifier of femininity.

Yes, forced wearing of skirts might explain why skirts are abandoned when young women are allowed to choose how to dress, and also, that they tend to consider skirts for formal wear.
However, in central Europe school uniforms are rare, and still very few women are wearing skirts. Accordingly, it cannot just be a question of protesting or bad memories.

And I forgot the (now lost to time) practice of breeching. Boys at a young age used to wear dresses (or dress-like garments) and when they were a little bit older (Wikipedia says between 2 and 8 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeching_(boys)) would start wearing pants. Though it was born out of convenience, no doubt people used this occasion as a milestone to mark growing up.

I, having come to an age where, in fact, few people are older than me, have only read about it. Even, if having no doubt been practiced 100-120 years ago, I very much doubt, it could explain anything of today’s behaviour.
It is like telling young women that it is injustice that they have got the right to wear ‘our’ trousers without we men having been allowed to wear ‘their’ skirts. To them women have always been wearing trousers, even if less than for 70 years by now.
The reason, very few women find men in skirts attractive is, to my opinion, not that they want to keep their monopoly on skirts, but that they 1) cannot see any reason why a man (and sometimes also a woman) should wear a skirt, and that 2) they regard a man in a skirt weak or even a sissy. And women still want a strong man or at least one who is their equal.

Not until the day women, also in practice, have obtained equal rights to the full and they no longer are regarded kind of second class, we shall be able to wear a skirt as a natural thing.
We have already obtained much more acceptance, and I think, in various countries or cultures or subcultures you can see a clear difference. In Scandinavia, where women on Women’s International Day hardly know any longer what to demand, it is, no doubt, much easier for a man to wear a skirt, than in some conservative society - and become accepted by family and spouse.

[Ozdelights]

The problem lies in the fact that heterosexual females do not generally see a skirted hetero male as a good potential partner.

And that is probably why many (not all) men who take up skirts are older and not necessarily looking for a partner.