A Tale of Two Modes.

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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crfriend
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by crfriend »

Grok wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:53 amI think that Dust is very likely right. People trying to reinforce the new, apparent conformity....fits this story.
Indeed; it makes perfect sense that's what's in play -- and I am not amused one bit by it. Hurt, more likely, because it's so needless and pointless.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

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Dust wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:34 am The part I did not want to bring up initially, was this:

Many people likely don't know how to respond to a man in a skirt, even one who pulls it off rather well. So they keep quiet. Complimenting a man in a standard suit is easy. Commenting at all on something as unusual as a man in a skirt seems to leave some people tongue tied.

Plus, people are taught to keep negative opinions to themselves. So negative comments by folks who disapprove of your skirts and such are kept to themselves or uttered behind your back only. When suddenly you show up in something they do approve of, they may lay the compliments on thick in the hope that you will continue wearing something "normal."

Maybe I'm just getting cynical...
I agree unreservedly.
I would like to add that most people who make negative comments behind another person's back think these opinions are their own. They don't stop to consider where they got the opinion from. They are unwilling to admit that they are merely copying another person's words, probably heard at a young age.
I think this has a double edged affect. If the tide of opinion is changed then like the tide the herd follows suit. On the other side, where attitudes are ingrained at a young age, they can be difficult to shift.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Grok »

It may be easy to compliment a man wearing a traditional male suit, but I never got any. (And why would anybody bother, such outfits are dull).

I recall a member's post, where he had to justify the wearing of jewelry. So I think it is a general thing, if a man makes even a modest departure from the coffin sized standards of convention, it is suspect.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

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Grok wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:48 pmI recall a member's post, where he had to justify the wearing of jewelry. So I think it is a general thing, if a man makes even a modest departure from the coffin sized standards of convention, it is suspect.
And dovetails into the commentary I recently received which calls into question the notion that my acquaintances "fully support" my alternate style choices. Words, as is said, are cheap, but the strong persuasion I recently got as "positive reinforcement" to abandon my personal style cut right to the bone.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Coder »

crfriend wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:14 pm
Grok wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:48 pmI recall a member's post, where he had to justify the wearing of jewelry. So I think it is a general thing, if a man makes even a modest departure from the coffin sized standards of convention, it is suspect.
And dovetails into the commentary I recently received which calls into question the notion that my acquaintances "fully support" my alternate style choices. Words, as is said, are cheap, but the strong persuasion I recently got as "positive reinforcement" to abandon my personal style cut right to the bone.
It sounds like the same inane comments that my family would give me when I'd have to dress up for a wedding or other formal event:

"You're so handsome"
"Oh, look at you"
"Wow, you clean up well"
"I'd never have recognized you"

No, they've never seen me in a skirt, but I... just... cannot... relate. I don't have it in my psyche to fully see where they are coming from. I observe these comments in a clinical sense, as an impassioned observer. I also have looked at the comments with disdain - maybe I don't like wearing a suit - why do I have to live up to your version of masculinity?
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Knowing Where We Stand

Post by Grok »

A number of members has mentioned that their skirts seem ignored by others. We should consider that many others do notice our skirts, but are keeping their true reactions (wishing that you would conform) to themselves.

It may not seem like it, but we really do have a steep hill to climb.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Faldaguy »

I was never a clothes-horse in guy or gal mode -- but I've certainly had many more compliments on my skirts than I ever did in "normal" male mode. I'd just take it as a compliment and not fret in the least about any deep psychological or social commentary beyond the surface comments -- most of which are just passing social niceties without much substance anyway.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Barleymower »

crfriend wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:14 pm
Grok wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:48 pmI recall a member's post, where he had to justify the wearing of jewelry. So I think it is a general thing, if a man makes even a modest departure from the coffin sized standards of convention, it is suspect.
And dovetails into the commentary I recently received which calls into question the notion that my acquaintances "fully support" my alternate style choices. Words, as is said, are cheap, but the strong persuasion I recently got as "positive reinforcement" to abandon my personal style cut right to the bone.
Carl you are not alone. I would relay a recent string of events which happened to me that cut right through me too but where would all that negativity go? I will try and turn the situation around here and post when I something positive to say.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:51 pm Why is it, then, that when I flip into "male drab"/Corporate mode I draw Oohs! and Ahhs!? I fail to understand this. It's like I'm being rewarded for not being myself. It baffles me.
I know exactly what you're saying. On many occasions when I show up somewhere dressed normal, it's always a smash hit. Then when back in the skirt, it's almost like they get disappointed.

It kinda hurts, and it sure is a lonely walk when you don't have a tribe.

I think it's just the way our culture is, and that culture is built on centuries of conformity and tradition.
Dust wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:34 am Plus, people are taught to keep negative opinions to themselves.
If only....
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Elisabetta »

moonshadow wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:20 pm
crfriend wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:51 pm Why is it, then, that when I flip into "male drab"/Corporate mode I draw Oohs! and Ahhs!? I fail to understand this. It's like I'm being rewarded for not being myself. It baffles me.
I know exactly what you're saying. On many occasions when I show up somewhere dressed normal, it's always a smash hit. Then when back in the skirt, it's almost like they get disappointed.

It kinda hurts, and it sure is a lonely walk when you don't have a tribe.

I think it's just the way our culture is, and that culture is built on centuries of conformity and tradition.
Dust wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:34 am Plus, people are taught to keep negative opinions to themselves.
If only....
It doesn't matter to me either way in what you wear I think you're beautiful regardless. People sometimes do it to me and while I'm not a man in a skirt it baffles me as to why people do that. If I dress up, do my hair add makeup etc they are all oooo's and Ah but when you don't live up to their perfections it's like they look at you entirely different
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Ozdelights »

Elisabetta wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:14 pm
moonshadow wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:20 pm
crfriend wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:51 pm Why is it, then, that when I flip into "male drab"/Corporate mode I draw Oohs! and Ahhs!? I fail to understand this. It's like I'm being rewarded for not being myself. It baffles me.
I know exactly what you're saying. On many occasions when I show up somewhere dressed normal, it's always a smash hit. Then when back in the skirt, it's almost like they get disappointed.

It kinda hurts, and it sure is a lonely walk when you don't have a tribe.

I think it's just the way our culture is, and that culture is built on centuries of conformity and tradition.
Dust wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:34 am Plus, people are taught to keep negative opinions to themselves.
If only....
It doesn't matter to me either way in what you wear I think you're beautiful regardless. People sometimes do it to me and while I'm not a man in a skirt it baffles me as to why people do that. If I dress up, do my hair add makeup etc they are all oooo's and Ah but when you don't live up to their perfections it's like they look at you entirely different
Lovely to see a partner express those feelings.

I agree the most comments are when we present as different to expectations. Here we have a business making multicoloured patterned workshirts deliberately to make conversations as a mental health initiative. It works, If I wear one I get so many comments and this leads to conversations.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by crfriend »

Ozdelights wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:03 pmLovely to see a partner express those feelings.
Indeed, it is very refreshing indeed. Some folks "get it". Most, however, I'm not so sure about.
I agree the most comments are when we present as different to expectations. Here we have a business making multicoloured patterned workshirts deliberately to make conversations as a mental health initiative. It works, If I wear one I get so many comments and this leads to conversations.
Any time we step outside the boundaries, folks are going to be confused and not know what to say, so frequently they keep things to themselves. My particular gripe stemmed from when I deliberately stepped back into "conforming" mode (as a Halloween costume) and picked up a whole lost of "positive reinforcement" for conforming.

I think I need to have this conversation with a few of my advisors and then my lady-friend from down south. I'm not sure this augurs well.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by Sinned »

If it's any consolation, Carl, if I dress smartly in trousers and shirt/whatever my wife will compliment me on how smart I look. As if she's stressing that I am not wearing a skirt. She compliments me on my legs when wearing a skirt, particularly a short skirt, but not the skirt itself.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

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Sinned wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:39 amIf it's any consolation, Carl, if I dress smartly in trousers and shirt/whatever my wife will compliment me on how smart I look. As if she's stressing that I am not wearing a skirt. She compliments me on my legs when wearing a skirt, particularly a short skirt, but not the skirt itself.
I am convinced that what we're getting is the not-so-subtle pressure to CONFORM. I hate this because it harks me back to when I started growing my hair out and my grandmother would consistently take back-hands at the matter using verbiage such as, "You're such a handsome young man except for that hair." It makes one feel a bit ill.
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Re: A Tale of Two Modes.

Post by moonshadow »

Yep... it's like everyone says "be yourself!", but if that involves doing something unorthodox, then they take issue.

What everyone actually means is "be yourself, as long it suits me".

And it doesn't only effect the traditionalist... every so often I am asked [politely] what my pronouns are [0], they almost look disappointed when I answer "he/him".

See... I don't even "conform" among the non-conformist...

What can I say... I live my life like an all day breakfast buffet at Shoneys... yes I'll have my French toast with my fried chicken... :lol:

I mean, what good does it do to say you live in a free society if you're only just going to do what everyone else says you're allowed to do??

[0] Around my region, folks are VERY VERY VERY hostile towards trans-women, thus trans allies in my opinion are not what I'd consider "traditional".
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