Skirts, the wearing of.

[ScotL]

Feels like this topic should be changed to "Skirts, the meaning of."

Hey Coder, I took this comment as a jest given the LOL emoticon and that you meant the thread has devolved into a discussion of the etymology of the word skirt. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with it.

[Coder]

Feels like this topic should be changed to "Skirts, the meaning of."

Pity really that I started it with what I thought was a positive story that gave us some hope for the future.
Sorry Coder but your words prove just how wrong I was.
Can anyone actually tell me how the high blown crap that has developed changes one little thing for that kid or fashion freedom for men in general.
As far as I am concerned, the status quo is perfectly unchallenged if this is all we can come up with.
Until we prove otherwise skirts and dresses will continue to be the exclusive territory of women and girls.
I do that by wearing one every day, actually being in view of anyone or everyone.
Not empty theory, philosophy or history just direct action.
Sadly, I must conclude that I really don't care what other members of the Cafe think or do.
Not a nice feeling at all!
Steve.

I’m sorry my comment was taken in a negative light - I was just poking fun at the thread drift (that I also contributed to).

As for “high blown crap that has developed” - if you are referring to the discussion of the skirt’s definition… the way I see it that understanding might give other members confidence to go out - knowing how arbitrary the definition/history is.

As for the original post and encouraging others - yes, the strongest action is to just go out and wear the dang things.

[STEVIE]

I’m sorry my comment was taken in a negative light - I was just poking fun at the thread drift (that I also contributed to).

I will apologise to you too Coder, I do see the humour in your statement, really.
However, what I cannot see is how the definition is relevant to anyone here, we know that it is wrong.
However, Joe Public will continue to perceive skirts as a Female Garment for a long time yet and no amount of discussion, debate or theorising is going to change that.
Is it not paradoxical that while we invariably report no reaction, that we also appear to have to rely on such stuff to bolster confidence too?
I'm afraid that I cannot see any logic in that at all.
The change will only happen when a majority of males actually realise that they do have a choice but not before.
Steve.
PS Lunchtime at work and I am wearing a dress.

[Coder]

However, what I cannot see is how the definition is relevant to anyone here, we know that it is wrong.
However, Joe Public will continue to perceive skirts as a Female Garment for a long time yet and no amount of discussion, debate or theorising is going to change that.
Is it not paradoxical that while we invariably report no reaction, that we also appear to have to rely on such stuff to bolster confidence too?
I'm afraid that I cannot see any logic in that at all.
The change will only happen when a majority of males actually realise that they do have a choice but not before.

For me it's just "fun" and interesting, not certain discussing definitions/etymology will make a huge difference to Joe Public. However, I suspect people who visit this site and are on the fence and need that extra push/encouragement will find some of this discussion useful. Each person will have their own mental/emotional/logical block and differing approaches will work for different people, having something spelled out literally may help.

On the subject of being out there - that is the strongest way to support/promote skirts et al. I had paused my skirt wearing in public for several years, it was only when I saw a guy wearing one, and said, "screw this, I am going to be myself" and then a pandemic hit

[Myopic Bookworm]

However, what I cannot see is how the definition is relevant to anyone here, we know that it is wrong.

When you are confronted by bullsh*tters, it sometimes helps to have the facts.

I happend to be interested in linguistics, but if you're not, that's fine with me. I don't expect to find my opinions shared by others on this forum except in one respect: that people should feel able to wear skirts if they want to.

Dictionary definitions change only AFTER perceived word meanings change, not BEFORE. So get out there and change people's perceptions.

(I'm wearing a tartan kilt today, as I was at an Armistice Day observance this morning and it seemed appropriate.
Comments overheard so far: from a man with a bicycle "he's wearing a kilt!" and from a female passer-by "you look gorgeous!")

[rode_kater]

However, what I cannot see is how the definition is relevant to anyone here, we know that it is wrong.

It may not be relevant, but I do find it interesting. The whole topic of historical or comparative linguistics is fascinating. The relationship between words changing meaning and the historical context at the time is sometimes fun.

But you're right though, it has very little to do with skirt-wearing

[Tazzmac]

How's this guys.... In the morning or for whatever reason during the day we get 'dressed' when we put any sort of clothes on . We all say it and that's okay because getting dressed means as like anything else like adorning our naked selves or windows , poultry or anything that starts basic and needs adorning .

If you say dress in the context of a male adornment society will say these days it's not normal . Why the heck not ? The term normal has a lot to answer for eh . Imagine if one day more than half the world's males ended up discarding legged clothing ..Would the new 'normal' happen and trousered clothes be shunned somewhat ?

It really is a fascinating perception . There is no practical or modesty reason with the aid of underwear as with females why a male can't wear a dress or skirt and in fact I'd say there are lots more practical reasons (and health reasons too) why skirts or dresses should be encouraged perhaps..

As far as I know in our country it's not illegal to wear the opposite sex clothing unless it's done to cause deception for illegal actions . Another thing I've mentioned before females can put on so called male garment with absolute confidence and apart from periodical gay comment if you know what context I refer to the ladies are rarely given much grief . Blokes don't always get the same outcome initially at least .

I also understand it's the source of great interest by women what's under your kilt .. My favourite response is "Nothing is worn. It's all in perfect working order "

My additional point is this .. It shouldn't necessarily what the article of clothing is called that leads to a normal item for a particular sex . It should in a perfect world refer to the design itself that any male or female can choose whatever they like .

[Barleymower]

I’m sorry my comment was taken in a negative light - I was just poking fun at the thread drift (that I also contributed to).

I will apologise to you too Coder, I do see the humour in your statement, really.
However, what I cannot see is how the definition is relevant to anyone here, we know that it is wrong.
However, Joe Public will continue to perceive skirts as a Female Garment for a long time yet and no amount of discussion, debate or theorising is going to change that.
Is it not paradoxical that while we invariably report no reaction, that we also appear to have to rely on such stuff to bolster confidence too?
I'm afraid that I cannot see any logic in that at all.
The change will only happen when a majority of males actually realise that they do have a choice but not before.
Steve.
PS Lunchtime at work and I am wearing a dress.

With you on that Stevie. Looks or no looks tomorrow I'll be out in one my favourite skirts tomorrow.

[ScotL]

Feels like this topic should be changed to "Skirts, the meaning of."

Pity really that I started it with what I thought was a positive story that gave us some hope for the future.
Sorry Coder but your words prove just how wrong I was.
Can anyone actually tell me how the high blown crap that has developed changes one little thing for that kid or fashion freedom for men in general.
As far as I am concerned, the status quo is perfectly unchallenged if this is all we can come up with.
Until we prove otherwise skirts and dresses will continue to be the exclusive territory of women and girls.
I do that by wearing one every day, actually being in view of anyone or everyone.
Not empty theory, philosophy or history just direct action.
Sadly, I must conclude that I really don't care what other members of the Cafe think or do.
Not a nice feeling at all!
Steve.

I’m sorry my comment was taken in a negative light - I was just poking fun at the thread drift (that I also contributed to).

As for “high blown crap that has developed” - if you are referring to the discussion of the skirt’s definition… the way I see it that understanding might give other members confidence to go out - knowing how arbitrary the definition/history is.

As for the original post and encouraging others - yes, the strongest action is to just go out and wear the dang things.

I don’t understand the need to apologize for thread drift. Isn’t that just normal conversation? How often do you have conversations with friends and the first topic brought up has nothing to do with the last. To me that’s normal. Why rigidly hold to staying on the original topic. Let the conversation go where it goes. Don’t suppress flight of ideas

[STEVIE]

Ok let me see if I can make this clearer.
In my view there is a difference between "normal" conversation and thread drift.
Sure, our interests and opinions vary, nothing wrong in that, all very interesting too.
In real conversation fluidity and evolution are fine but the admonition, "Don't change the subject" can also be utilised.
If anyone feels suppressed or oppressed by this, then they are free to fly their ideas elsewhere.
Steve.

[crfriend]

Ok let me see if I can make this clearer.
In my view there is a difference between "normal" conversation and thread drift.
Sure, our interests and opinions vary, nothing wrong in that, all very interesting too.

Indeed there is a profound difference in the way assorted conversations are carried out, and that's because there are different types of conversation. On one hand, we have the sort of small-talk that one gets at bars and with pals -- and there's directed conversation that is intended to solve perceived problems. Here at the Cafe we have both, but this particular one closer fits to the "directed" type where we're trying to solve an issue and "changing the subject" mid-stream isn't particularly helpful nor welcome.

The amount of "Analysis Paralysis" I've seen here recently is mind-blowing; the older faction has learnt that it's not really that much of a big deal so long as one is careful with his presentation even "unconventionally attired" and the newcomers remain positively terrified that Bad Things Will Happen if they dare step outside the mainstream -- and have been talking at one another instead of actually conversing, and it's gone precisely nowhere. That's "nowhere" as in zero motion, and possibly a bit of retrograde motion as the herd mentality seems to be being reinforced instead of getting gently eroded.

[ScotL]

Ok let me see if I can make this clearer.
In my view there is a difference between "normal" conversation and thread drift.
Sure, our interests and opinions vary, nothing wrong in that, all very interesting too.

Indeed there is a profound difference in the way assorted conversations are carried out, and that's because there are different types of conversation. On one hand, we have the sort of small-talk that one gets at bars and with pals -- and there's directed conversation that is intended to solve perceived problems. Here at the Cafe we have both, but this particular one closer fits to the "directed" type where we're trying to solve an issue and "changing the subject" mid-stream isn't particularly helpful nor welcome.

The amount of "Analysis Paralysis" I've seen here recently is mind-blowing; the older faction has learnt that it's not really that much of a big deal so long as one is careful with his presentation even "unconventionally attired" and the newcomers remain positively terrified that Bad Things Will Happen if they dare step outside the mainstream -- and have been talking at one another instead of actually conversing, and it's gone precisely nowhere. That's "nowhere" as in zero motion, and possibly a bit of retrograde motion as the herd mentality seems to be being reinforced instead of getting gently eroded.

We are all at different stages of being comfortable wearing openly. Chatting openly about fears, trials and tribulations are how some overcome these obstacles. If you were lucky enough to never be afraid and just wear openly, thank whomever you thank and be happy but don’t project your experience as the only way it happens. I think we should be open to numerous ways people progress and just be accepting rather than dismissive.

In terms of thread drift versus the flow of natural conversation, this is a “problem” for all posting forums since their dawn. There is no way to create rigid laws that accurately differentiate one from the other without infringing on peoples ability to just freely converse. Even if you could create such rules governing what’s thread drift versus the ebb and flow of conversational discussions, would you want to be so Draconic?

Thread drift happens. No one’s at fault. No one is nefariously steering the conversation. It’s an unintended consequence of the free exchange of ideas. Interested parties can bring the thread back to the original discussion by posting a thought about the original discussion. But to get mad at the fact it happens is counterproductive. I believe we should welcome discussions.

[STEVIE]

I believe we should welcome discussions.

Unlike you Scott, I don't know about all forums, so I was only referring to the Cafe and this particular thread.
The discussion wasn't around any fears, trials or tribulations it was about the meaning and etymology of "skirt".
What is more, I did not dismiss the discussion, I stated my own opinion that it was irrelevant to the move toward greater fashion freedom for men.
Sorry but I cannot help what you may or may not believe so as we said before, best let it end here.
Steve.

[Tazzmac]

I have a Collins Dictionary somewhere but also a Heinemann one right on hand ...just to note

skirt a, a piece of clothing which wraps around the lower half of the body . That's it ..no defined mention for a specific sex . Nada ...Nought ..

dress a a piece of female clothing consisting of a skirt and top in one piece

tunic a a short , loose sleeveless dress often worn with a belt b a similar garment worn by the ancient Greeks and Romans

frock 1. a woman's dress 2. the long loose gown worn by monks

kilt a short skirt, usually tartan wool pleated with broad vertical folds typically worn by Scottish Highlanders

You could say going by one of dozens of dictionaries that SKIRTS are defined to be neither specifically male or female ..

Heinemann's at least deduce skirts are non gender specific I assume ..

Just a bit of nonsense for you guys...https://i.pinimg.com/474x/dd/84/67/dd84 ... -grits.jpg..

Believe it or not that old cartoon was almost me about five years ago when my female next door neighbour and I took a wrong turn on a new bush track we were hiking the first time with our dogs . I decided to go up a steep bank to see the original track and Kate laughed as I came back down in my utilikilt ..A couple of years later I found this cartoon .. She's moved since but we keep in contact and we still laugh about that day .. We got home safely after we back tracked a couple of hundred metres by the way ... Cheers all ...

[ScotL]

I believe we should welcome discussions.

Unlike you Scott, I don't know about all forums, so I was only referring to the Cafe and this particular thread.
The discussion wasn't around any fears, trials or tribulations it was about the meaning and etymology of "skirt".
What is more, I did not dismiss the discussion, I stated my own opinion that it was irrelevant to the move toward greater fashion freedom for men.
Sorry but I cannot help what you may or may not believe so as we said before, best let it end here.
Steve.

I don’t believe you’ve correctly read my post or perhaps it wasn’t clear. The “fears, trials and tribulations” is MY discussion of the thoughts that I believe helps a person contemplating openly wearing a skirt as a man. I’ve avoided replying or posting to you until this post replying to your direct complaints so I don’t know how I accused you of dismissing anything. My reply was to Carl. I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, it was not my intention.

But you seem very defensive and upset so I’ll just wish you well.