A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Grok
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Grok »

ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:55 pm

Was skirt wearing a big thing then by dudes?
No.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Grok »

If I understand Stu correctly, there is a pendulum which results in a two phase cycle: Gender-bending phase/Socially Conservative phase/Gende-bending phase/Socially Conservative phase.....

The question that comes to mind...can something introduced in a Gender-bending phase survive into and through a Socially Conservative phase?

For example, finger nail polish for men, which, as far as I have seen, are dark colors. Suppose that, instead of disappearing, nail polish-as it now is-
survives through the next phase and into the next Gender-bending phase. Perhaps other shades and colors might be introduced at this time. Eventually, after multiple phases, nail polish for men might become traditional.

Jewelry for men, as another example. Signet rings become popularized for men, survive, and during the next Gender-bending phase a simple bracelet is popularized. Eventually, after multiple phases, jewelry for men has become diverse.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

Stu wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:19 pm
Any store brave enough to size some up as unisex, put them on the men's rails and market/advertise them as wearable by both her and him would be taking a risk - but could potentially start a trend and, in any case, the free publicity from that would pay dividends.
Hi Stu,
It didn't work like that for Zara or H&M when they dipped their toes.
However, this Australian retailer was discussed here in 2021, https://shop.dangerfield.com.au/all.htm ... 1&limit=41.
Admittedly they are still running with it and succeeding too, at a niche level.
This is not bad but not sure about the publicity gained or whether we have a burgeoning trend.
I can't detect the subtle aroma of heather on fire anyway.
Steve.
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:52 pm
“straightjacket”
Apologies, but I had the correct spelling. This is from the Oxford English Dictionary.

"a piece of clothing like a jacket with long arms that can be tied together, used to control a person who is violent and thought to be likely to harm themselves or others
(disapproving) a thing that stops something from growing or developing".
"Strait" in this context meaning restriction.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by rode_kater »

Grok wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:59 am
If I understand Stu correctly, there is a pendulum which results in a two phase cycle: Gender-bending phase/Socially Conservative phase/Gende-bending phase/Socially Conservative phase.....

The question that comes to mind...can something introduced in a Gender-bending phase survive into and through a Socially Conservative phase?
I don't buy the pendulum theory. Things never go back to the way they were before. History never repeats, though it rhymes.

What you do see is the younger generation trying to differentiate themselves from the older generations, and this is a good thing. Some surveys register this as the youth being more "conservative" but that's not the classic Christian conservative. Rather it's the conservative that thinks family units are a good idea and everyone being able to buy their own home on a single income is preferable. They're not hung up on that it has to be the woman staying at home. Generally it's more wealth inequality and lack of chances they're protesting against (and rightly so in my opinion).

In an age of neoliberalism, promoting the idea of solidarity and wealth distribution like we had in the past is a conservative position. The youth are not protesting the social rights we have achieved.
Grok wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:59 am
For example, finger nail polish for men, which, as far as I have seen, are dark colors. Suppose that, instead of disappearing, nail polish-as it now is-
survives through the next phase and into the next Gender-bending phase. Perhaps other shades and colors might be introduced at this time. Eventually, after multiple phases, nail polish for men might become traditional.
To be honest, I think this is a different dynamic. Namely, the ideas parents pass on to their children. We've discussed often here how it's the family that forms the biggest barrier to acceptance. Even partners who literally say that they don't care if the neighbour wears a skirt, just as long as you don't. If young boys don't see their dad in a skirt, they aren't going to it either. If they don't see their dad wearing bright coloured nail polish, they won't either. Some kids go through a rebellious phase and do something completely different, but in general that learnt in childhood sticks your entire life (for good or for bad).

Right now we're seeing more and more parents deliberately think about what they're teaching their children, and to not overreact if their boy reaches for his sister's tutu. This goes though to schools where others kids see it and consider it possible.

So, I don't think there will be a revolution where one day all guys think it's ok to wear a skirt. But that the generation growing up now will keep expanding and one day it will be normal and we won't even have noticed it happening.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Grok wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:37 am
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:55 pm

Was skirt wearing a big thing then by dudes?
No.
Then it sounds like the past ten years have had an advancement of men in skirts. Granted the internet wasn’t a thing then, but I feel like dudes in skirts has been something chatted about in the early 2000s and now has somewhat increased in volume.

I mean for our grand poobah, Carl, to be quoted in CNN and then syndicated for the “world”, I think that’s utterly amazing. And again, kudos Carl, very impressive. You should be still basking in the glow of all that
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

STEVIE wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:08 am
Stu wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:19 pm
Any store brave enough to size some up as unisex, put them on the men's rails and market/advertise them as wearable by both her and him would be taking a risk - but could potentially start a trend and, in any case, the free publicity from that would pay dividends.
Hi Stu,
It didn't work like that for Zara or H&M when they dipped their toes.
However, this Australian retailer was discussed here in 2021, https://shop.dangerfield.com.au/all.htm ... 1&limit=41.
Admittedly they are still running with it and succeeding too, at a niche level.
This is not bad but not sure about the publicity gained or whether we have a burgeoning trend.
I can't detect the subtle aroma of heather on fire anyway.
Steve.
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:52 pm
“straightjacket”
Apologies, but I had the correct spelling. This is from the Oxford English Dictionary.

"a piece of clothing like a jacket with long arms that can be tied together, used to control a person who is violent and thought to be likely to harm themselves or others
(disapproving) a thing that stops something from growing or developing".
"Strait" in this context meaning restriction.
Hey Stevie!

Not sure why you’re apologizing, I appreciate the correction of my spelling. I’m being sincere. I’m a knowledge hound and like, no love learning new stuff. Had no idea it was strait not straight. Do you know why? I’m really curious.

But on the topic, I do not see how men wearing drab, boring mens skirt is a straitjacket. I really can only see men wearing any skirt as a good thing. Once Pandora’s box is open, mens skirts will be whatever a man wears.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

rode_kater wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:11 pm
Grok wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:59 am
If I understand Stu correctly, there is a pendulum which results in a two phase cycle: Gender-bending phase/Socially Conservative phase/Gende-bending phase/Socially Conservative phase.....

The question that comes to mind...can something introduced in a Gender-bending phase survive into and through a Socially Conservative phase?
I don't buy the pendulum theory. Things never go back to the way they were before. History never repeats, though it rhymes.

What you do see is the younger generation trying to differentiate themselves from the older generations, and this is a good thing. Some surveys register this as the youth being more "conservative" but that's not the classic Christian conservative. Rather it's the conservative that thinks family units are a good idea and everyone being able to buy their own home on a single income is preferable. They're not hung up on that it has to be the woman staying at home. Generally it's more wealth inequality and lack of chances they're protesting against (and rightly so in my opinion).

In an age of neoliberalism, promoting the idea of solidarity and wealth distribution like we had in the past is a conservative position. The youth are not protesting the social rights we have achieved.
Grok wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:59 am
For example, finger nail polish for men, which, as far as I have seen, are dark colors. Suppose that, instead of disappearing, nail polish-as it now is-
survives through the next phase and into the next Gender-bending phase. Perhaps other shades and colors might be introduced at this time. Eventually, after multiple phases, nail polish for men might become traditional.
To be honest, I think this is a different dynamic. Namely, the ideas parents pass on to their children. We've discussed often here how it's the family that forms the biggest barrier to acceptance. Even partners who literally say that they don't care if the neighbour wears a skirt, just as long as you don't. If young boys don't see their dad in a skirt, they aren't going to it either. If they don't see their dad wearing bright coloured nail polish, they won't either. Some kids go through a rebellious phase and do something completely different, but in general that learnt in childhood sticks your entire life (for good or for bad).

Right now we're seeing more and more parents deliberately think about what they're teaching their children, and to not overreact if their boy reaches for his sister's tutu. This goes though to schools where others kids see it and consider it possible.

So, I don't think there will be a revolution where one day all guys think it's ok to wear a skirt. But that the generation growing up now will keep expanding and one day it will be normal and we won't even have noticed it happening.
Excellent points and I love the history doesnt repeats, it rhymes. Literary brilliance.

The word revolution is too strong a term as it implies an overthrow of something. One reason I feel men wearing skirts will happen is mens wardrobes already changed several times. To believe further changes will not happen (not just talking about skirts) is myopic.

I’m thinking about when mens style of dress went from tunics and hose to short pants and hose to long pants. How did that happen without a grand proclamation? Obviously I’m being cheeky here but this change in garment styles happened. Can and likely will again. Looking at older paintings, there is a time when men are seen in pants and fir all intents and purposes, skirts
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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ScotL wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:17 pm
Then it sounds like the past ten years have had an advancement of men in skirts. Granted the internet wasn’t a thing then, but I feel like dudes in skirts has been something chatted about in the early 2000s and now has somewhat increased in volume.
There has been an advancement of sorts, but it hasn't gained the speed it'd take to get to "critical mass" -- and all the while the political climate has been hardening, and the economic situation decaying rapidly -- and those factors haven't helped one little bit. Honestly, even if the neocons and reactionaries were removed from power yesterday the future does not seem to hold out much hope.
I mean for our grand poobah, Carl, to be quoted in CNN and then syndicated for the “world”, I think that’s utterly amazing. And again, kudos Carl, very impressive. You should be still basking in the glow of all that
Thanks for that. Andy Warhol stated some years back that we'd all get 15 minutes of fame one day -- and this has astonishingly been my second shot at the phenomenon, my first coming in 1999 when I was the cover article in the Worcester (MA) Telegram and Gazette's "People" section because of my work in the field of computer preservation and restoration, including a massive colour shot of me with a piece of history in my hands and a little kitten at my elbow. (The kitten photo-bombed me! But was welcome after all.) That's two goes at fame for things that could not be more different! That's unusual.

Here's the article.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

ScotL wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:20 pm
Do you know why? I’m really curious.
It was first coined in 1722, recorded anyway and used for restricting the movement of lunatics and criminals.
Also, much beloved of escapologists as a prop in their acts.
Think of "strait" as being in dire straits meaning with nowhere to turn and not the 80s rock band.
Strait is a nautical term meaning narrow strip of water, so vessels with big turning circles were thus restricted or in dire straits.
In fashion terms for men in skirts, we are likely to get hemmed in by a single look as we are by trousers now.
Men have allowed themselves to be made conservative thinkers by other men while the women have made fashion freedom all their very own.
A fair majority of men are still totally under the illusion that the ladies in their lives know their clothing choices better than they do.
Sure, many women would happily see their guy in a kilt but veto a tartan skirt. Denim and drab may work for some but again the other halves will kill innovation before the thought occurs to Joe Public.
Having had skirts in my own life for some 60 years in one way and another, the general attitude has only begun to soften in the past 10 or so and we still have a very long way to go.
Like I said the best and really, worst indicators are the failure of Zara and H&M to gain anything from their ventures.
Meanwhile, I will just carry on regardless and browse accordingly.
Steve.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:31 pm
ScotL wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:17 pm
Then it sounds like the past ten years have had an advancement of men in skirts. Granted the internet wasn’t a thing then, but I feel like dudes in skirts has been something chatted about in the early 2000s and now has somewhat increased in volume.
There has been an advancement of sorts, but it hasn't gained the speed it'd take to get to "critical mass" -- and all the while the political climate has been hardening, and the economic situation decaying rapidly -- and those factors haven't helped one little bit. Honestly, even if the neocons and reactionaries were removed from power yesterday the future does not seem to hold out much hope.
I mean for our grand poobah, Carl, to be quoted in CNN and then syndicated for the “world”, I think that’s utterly amazing. And again, kudos Carl, very impressive. You should be still basking in the glow of all that
Thanks for that. Andy Warhol stated some years back that we'd all get 15 minutes of fame one day -- and this has astonishingly been my second shot at the phenomenon, my first coming in 1999 when I was the cover article in the Worcester (MA) Telegram and Gazette's "People" section because of my work in the field of computer preservation and restoration, including a massive colour shot of me with a piece of history in my hands and a little kitten at my elbow. (The kitten photo-bombed me! But was welcome after all.) That's two goes at fame for things that could not be more different! That's unusual.

Here's the article.
You’re welcome, glad you’ve been doubly blessed.

About changes coming in todays current climate, I’m gonna remain optimistic. The number of articles on the subject that are glowingly positive is why. Historically, men once wore dresses/skirts and then didn’t. So change can happen. I’m gonna do what I can do make it change again
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

STEVIE wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:44 pm
ScotL wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:20 pm
Do you know why? I’m really curious.
It was first coined in 1722, recorded anyway and used for restricting the movement of lunatics and criminals.
Also, much beloved of escapologists as a prop in their acts.
Think of "strait" as being in dire straits meaning with nowhere to turn and not the 80s rock band.
Strait is a nautical term meaning narrow strip of water, so vessels with big turning circles were thus restricted or in dire straits.
In fashion terms for men in skirts, we are likely to get hemmed in by a single look as we are by trousers now.
Men have allowed themselves to be made conservative thinkers by other men while the women have made fashion freedom all their very own.
A fair majority of men are still totally under the illusion that the ladies in their lives know their clothing choices better than they do.
Sure, many women would happily see their guy in a kilt but veto a tartan skirt. Denim and drab may work for some but again the other halves will kill innovation before the thought occurs to Joe Public.
Having had skirts in my own life for some 60 years in one way and another, the general attitude has only begun to soften in the past 10 or so and we still have a very long way to go.
Like I said the best and really, worst indicators are the failure of Zara and H&M to gain anything from their ventures.
Meanwhile, I will just carry on regardless and browse accordingly.
Steve.
Thanks for the info, makes sense. Especially the nautical explanation. Dire straits indeed.

The past ten years is why I’m optimistic. CNN covering Carl. Multiple positive articles. Rock stars, movie stars and jocks openly wearing skirts. All good.

That Zara and H&M failed is par for the course when you speak to business ventures and most things. The initial forays into some area almost always fail. How the next group learns from their failures and makes it better is why we learn from our mistakes and advance our world. Can’t give up just because the first few failed. Successful people know it’s not a win versus fail, it’s a fail until you win.

I still just don’t see how more men wearing any skirt is anything other than a win for men’s fashion. Mens fashion remains stagnated if mainstream men never wear a skirt. If this happens, men won’t wear neither a drab nor colorful skirt.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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STEVIE wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:44 pm
Think of "strait" as being in dire straits meaning with nowhere to turn and not the 80s rock band.
Strait is a nautical term meaning narrow strip of water, so vessels with big turning circles were thus restricted or in dire straits.
You beat me to the punch one that one, Steve. Bravo.

I was going to invoke the Straits of Magellan as a canonical nautical example (although there are vastly more), and I was also going to call out those old Sultans of Swing, Dire Straits.

As in the case of the Straits of Magellan, sometimes a strait is not straight.

Isn't language fun!
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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ScotL wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:52 pm
I still just don’t see how more men wearing any skirt is anything other than a win for men’s fashion. Mens fashion remains stagnated if mainstream men never wear a skirt. If this happens, men won’t wear neither a drab nor colorful skirt.
I've been working my way through The Psychology of Clothing with some level of pain, but after discarding the worst of the Freudian stuff it's beginning to gel into something useful (and note that even Freud was eventually cornered into admitting that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"). And it's beginning to integrate into what we see in the world now, rather than in the 1930s when the original was written. The picture that's evolving isn't pretty,

I quite candidly admit that I exist in a world of engineering and architecture, and have come in for some flak for calling what passes for modern "fashion" as "brutalist" (as in the architectural style, as perhaps best expressed by Boston City Hall (which see)). Putting it in those terms, I posited, "Which would you prefer to live in, a concrete blockhouse with all structural members visible or a gaily (back when we could use that word) Queen Anne Victorian house? And, face it, what we wear is what we "live in" very much. Put very bluntly, I want the option of colour; I want the option of outright frivolity when the whim takes me. I do not want to be put into the traditional male straitjacket of drab and miserable fabrics. More finely attuned, I'm after reversing the Great Male Renunciation. Bring back freedom of expression -- and make it devoid of sexual taint.

Now, before anybody "goes off" at me about Boston City Hall, I'd like to state that I liked that structure from the first moment I saw it. It's brilliant. Brutal, yes, but brilliant. And I like the style -- in light moderation. It's not an everyday taste for me. (And I used to have a computer customer therein, so I've had the run of the place.)
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:38 pm
I do not want to be put into the traditional male straitjacket of drab and miserable fabrics. More finely attuned, I'm after reversing the Great Male Renunciation. Bring back freedom of expression -- and make it devoid of sexual taint.
Regardless of whether more men wear skirts or not, I don’t see you being limited at all. I find the two concepts to be independent of each other. Mainstream men might wear skirts that are drab, boring denim and you will still wear exactly what you want to. The only thing that would change would be more men will be wearing skirts.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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ScotL wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:46 pm
The only thing that would change would be more men will be wearing skirts.
And those who don't wear the prescribed lengths and colours will be still defined as deviants.
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