A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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ScotL
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:01 pm
STEVIE wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:49 am
I make no judgements on others, so I seek no approval.
I agree. The naysayers really should get out of the way of the guys who are actually doing things in real life.

Did Robert Goddard give up on liquid-fuelled rockets merely because The New York Times said it wouldn't work? Heck, no, and look where it got us. Who did Werner von Braun mention by name following the successful moon landings? Robert Goddard.
Who are the naysayers? Though I love the thought, just make those who say men shouldn’t wear skirts shut up and go away, that’s a confrontational approach.

You attract more bees with honey than vinegar.

I think we should embrace any male wearing any skirt at any time regardless of whether we like them, their style or their skirt. This world is a wondrously diverse place. Being welcoming not confrontational breeds success.
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crfriend
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by crfriend »

ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:18 pm
Who are the naysayers?
Those who say, "Keep men in pants." and those who say, "Keep men in drab."
Though I love the thought, just make those who say men shouldn’t wear skirts shut up and go away, that’s a confrontational approach.
No. It's a request just to stay out of the way and don't interfere with those who are trying to do something.
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ScotL
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:16 pm
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:18 pm
Who are the naysayers?
Those who say, "Keep men in pants." and those who say, "Keep men in drab."
Though I love the thought, just make those who say men shouldn’t wear skirts shut up and go away, that’s a confrontational approach.
No. It's a request just to stay out of the way and don't interfere with those who are trying to do something.
Still confused as to who they are but likely not important. I have a feeling the “naysayers” are the proverbial “they”. As in “they” say four out of five dentists prefer mint toothpaste. “They” say you have to wait fifteen minutes after eating before going swimming.

The problem with the proverbial “they” is “they” is a concept not a person and you can’t rationalize with a concept.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:35 pm
Still confused as to who they are but likely not important. I have a feeling the “naysayers” are the proverbial “they”. As in “they” say four out of five dentists prefer mint toothpaste. “They” say you have to wait fifteen minutes after eating before going swimming.
In this case,
crfriend wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:16 pm
Those who say, "Keep men in pants." and those who say, "Keep men in drab."
In other words, ignorant believers in a mistranslated, ancient and obsolete document; those who do not understand that not all men are alike (or really even similar) when it comes to tastes in aesthetics; those who insist that an inanimate insentient thing can possess a "gender"; and those, in general, who would impede progress in solving a problem.
The problem with the proverbial “they” is “they” is a concept not a person and you can’t rationalize with a concept.
There's the old adage, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.". I view it a slightly more nuanced way, that there are those who are trying to be the solution to the problem, those who don't much care about it, and those that are part of the problem. In that framework, the key thing is to not be part of the problem. If you can't contribute to the solution, get the heck out so you don't inadvertently become part of the problem.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Grok »

This has been mentioned before....

One possibility for acceptance are skirts intended for athletic/outdoors-y activities.* The good news is that there are some available. A few are listed in the Links section, such as Purple Rain and RunningKilt. (I have a couple RunningKilts-a good design). I believe there are one or two other brands available.

Intended for specific purposes-purposes associated with men, such as hiking and running-these should have both an in-built excuse and in-built incentive for men to wear them.

I know this sounds rather limited. But the more exceptions to the rule...the more likely the rule is to crumble.

Another possibility with an in-built purpose are sarongs for beach wear. (And even if not commercially viable, it is easy enough to improvise with a rectangle of cloth).

*Though what appears to be a skirt may actually be skorts.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Grok »

Perhaps mainstream society will accept just a few designs for specific niches. Fine.

What is important to me is that the mainstream tolerate the mavericks who dress as they please :!:
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:00 pm
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:35 pm
Still confused as to who they are but likely not important. I have a feeling the “naysayers” are the proverbial “they”. As in “they” say four out of five dentists prefer mint toothpaste. “They” say you have to wait fifteen minutes after eating before going swimming.
In this case,
crfriend wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:16 pm
Those who say, "Keep men in pants." and those who say, "Keep men in drab."
In other words, ignorant believers in a mistranslated, ancient and obsolete document; those who do not understand that not all men are alike (or really even similar) when it comes to tastes in aesthetics; those who insist that an inanimate insentient thing can possess a "gender"; and those, in general, who would impede progress in solving a problem.
The problem with the proverbial “they” is “they” is a concept not a person and you can’t rationalize with a concept.
There's the old adage, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.". I view it a slightly more nuanced way, that there are those who are trying to be the solution to the problem, those who don't much care about it, and those that are part of the problem. In that framework, the key thing is to not be part of the problem. If you can't contribute to the solution, get the heck out so you don't inadvertently become part of the problem.
I feel like you’re speaking in code. What is this all powerful document that dictates gender rules in clothing? I feel the “they” who want to keep men in pants and drab clothing isn’t really a person. It’s more of a boogeyman. Something we fear but really ain’t a real thing but we believe in it so we give it power.

Who are these people who are not part of the solution and are inadvertently the problem??
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Grok wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:33 pm
This has been mentioned before....

One possibility for acceptance are skirts intended for athletic/outdoors-y activities.* The good news is that there are some available. A few are listed in the Links section, such as Purple Rain and RunningKilt. (I have a couple RunningKilts-a good design). I believe there are one or two other brands available.

Intended for specific purposes-purposes associated with men, such as hiking and running-these should have both an in-built excuse and in-built incentive for men to wear them.

I know this sounds rather limited. But the more exceptions to the rule...the more likely the rule is to crumble.

Another possibility with an in-built purpose are sarongs for beach wear. (And even if not commercially viable, it is easy enough to improvise with a rectangle of cloth).

*Though what appears to be a skirt may actually be skorts.
I think this is a big part of the solution to borrow Carl’s thread. Slowly but surely chipping away at the notion that men don’t wear skirts. They wear kilts to run and skorts for other athletic activities and a sarong for the beach. Names that allow the man to wear it without affecting his sensibilities but we all know are actually just skirts. And when people grow comfortable with the idea that men are wearing kilts/skorts/sarongs, men wear skirts will also just be accepted because in reality that’s what’s happening.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Coder »

Grok wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:59 pm
What is important to me is that the mainstream tolerate the mavericks who dress as they please :!:
There are a lot of examples on this board alone - and it seems for the most part we are tolerated. Obviously the further you push the envelope the more "stares" you might get, but in the three years I've been on this board I've only read maybe a handful of negative experiences, and only two (I think one was of one of moon's jaunts) where people were really really obnoxious. Heck, the most recent example - the little girl who said "I hate you" - her grandmother (elderly? baby boomer?) sounded very tolerant, much moreso that I'd have expected.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:32 am
This notion of more men wearing skirts as a bad thing is absolutely perplexing to me
Scott.
More men in skirts is no bad thing!
However, any number of men straitjacketed into a single design of any garment is!
I do hope that alleviates your perplexity.
Steve.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Stu »

The gender-bending fad periodically comes in various ways and then and goes away as all fads tend to do. We had it in the 1960s with "unisex" and again in the 19870s with the glam rock cult and again in the 1980s with the "Boy George" mania. We are going through such a fad now, but it will pass and then it will be replaced with hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity coming back into fashion: gender fluidity will be yesterday's trend. If we are interested in de-gendering skirts, this bandwagon is not one that will serve our purpose because it will run out of steam and then be reversed. In any case, the couture / high fashion end is also not something upon which we can depend as the styes vary between bizarre and outrageous, and they are hugely expensive and unavailable on the High Street and, as a rule, they are created for younger men or celebs.

If we want to de-gender skirts, we have to find a way to do that which can be an attractive option for all men regardless of age and financial resources and, ideally, boys too. Kilt-wearing offers a way into that, but kilts tend to be expensive and they have extremely strong cultural associations as part of a national dress- Solid colour kilts worn with heavy sweaters can look masculine and I suspect that is a market which could lend itself to being opened by a brave and imaginative entrepreneur. To make them wearable all year and also affordable, however, they would have to be available in lighter-weight fabrics and with far less yardage. I can't for the life of me understand by the simplest form of knee-length denim skirt has never been offered to males of all ages. Denim is the ultimate unisex material; it is robust, washable and cheap - and versatile enough to be dressed up or dressed down to suit any occasion. Any store brave enough to size some up as unisex, put them on the men's rails and market/advertise them as wearable by both her and him would be taking a risk - but could potentially start a trend and, in any case, the free publicity from that would pay dividends.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Ozdelights »

Stu wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:19 pm

If we want to de-gender skirts, we have to find a way to do that which can be an attractive option for all men regardless of age and financial resources and, ideally, boys too. Kilt-wearing offers a way into that, but kilts tend to be expensive and they have extremely strong cultural associations as part of a national dress- Solid colour kilts worn with heavy sweaters can look masculine and I suspect that is a market which could lend itself to being opened by a brave and imaginative entrepreneur. To make them wearable all year and also affordable, however, they would have to be available in lighter-weight fabrics and with far less yardage. I can't for the life of me understand by the simplest form of knee-length denim skirt has never been offered to males of all ages. Denim is the ultimate unisex material; it is robust, washable and cheap - and versatile enough to be dressed up or dressed down to suit any occasion. Any store brave enough to size some up as unisex, put them on the men's rails and market/advertise them as wearable by both her and him would be taking a risk - but could potentially start a trend and, in any case, the free publicity from that would pay dividends.
And then when manufacturers and retailers increase the market they will be willing to expand offerings into other styles. Of course other styles are already available to us still just on the other side of the aisle.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Stu »

Exactly right.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

STEVIE wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:09 pm
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:32 am
This notion of more men wearing skirts as a bad thing is absolutely perplexing to me
Scott.
More men in skirts is no bad thing!
However, any number of men straitjacketed into a single design of any garment is!
I do hope that alleviates your perplexity.
Steve.
Guess I’m not seeing how men wearing a skirt described as drab or boring but something he wants to wear is a “straightjacket”. I see men starting with drab boring and then venturing out. That’s just human nature. And even if they stay with drab boring skirts, they’ll look boring next to you and then me as I finally get the balls to wear a colorful skirt.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Stu wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:19 pm
The gender-bending fad periodically comes in various ways and then and goes away as all fads tend to do. We had it in the 1960s with "unisex" and again in the 19870s with the glam rock cult and again in the 1980s with the "Boy George" mania. We are going through such a fad now, but it will pass and then it will be replaced with hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity coming back into fashion: gender fluidity will be yesterday's trend. If we are interested in de-gendering skirts, this bandwagon is not one that will serve our purpose because it will run out of steam and then be reversed. In any case, the couture / high fashion end is also not something upon which we can depend as the styes vary between bizarre and outrageous, and they are hugely expensive and unavailable on the High Street and, as a rule, they are created for younger men or celebs.

If we want to de-gender skirts, we have to find a way to do that which can be an attractive option for all men regardless of age and financial resources and, ideally, boys too. Kilt-wearing offers a way into that, but kilts tend to be expensive and they have extremely strong cultural associations as part of a national dress- Solid colour kilts worn with heavy sweaters can look masculine and I suspect that is a market which could lend itself to being opened by a brave and imaginative entrepreneur. To make them wearable all year and also affordable, however, they would have to be available in lighter-weight fabrics and with far less yardage. I can't for the life of me understand by the simplest form of knee-length denim skirt has never been offered to males of all ages. Denim is the ultimate unisex material; it is robust, washable and cheap - and versatile enough to be dressed up or dressed down to suit any occasion. Any store brave enough to size some up as unisex, put them on the men's rails and market/advertise them as wearable by both her and him would be taking a risk - but could potentially start a trend and, in any case, the free publicity from that would pay dividends.
Excellent points sir! The hiking skirts er kilts I wear from Sportskilts are not kilts but wrap skirts. They just look sort of close enough that when people are indecisive they land on kilt. But…

Hey one question, as I wasn’t around for the earlier gender fluidity of the 60s and 70s. I recall seeing some pretty flamboyant hair and pants and shirts that were pretty darn feminine on the rock bands and what not, but I wasn’t aware of skirts being a big part of it. Outside of Bowie. Was skirt wearing a big thing then by dudes?
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