A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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ScotL
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

steamman wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:30 pm
“Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.”
Exactly. That’s the conversation I had with my wife when I plucked up the courage to tell her I wanted to wear skirts. She more or less said that she didn’t want her man to be “the first”. Hence, I wear skirts when she is not around and it’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” type understanding. Frustrating to say the least.
Do you think she said she doesn’t want her man to be the first or she doesn’t want her man to wear at all?

If it’s the first, she’s just worried about you. Doesn’t want to see the possible ridicule we all fear could happen (despite the fact that most stories on here do not support the open mocking that we fear).

If it’s the second, she’s just buying time to delay you from wearing cause she’s not in favor.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by crfriend »

ScotL wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:58 am
Although you don’t approve of Brad Pitts outfit, I’m curious, do you approve of him as a man wearing a skirt?
Yes, I approve of his wearing a skirt because that should be a basic right. What I objected to was the scruffy look, but note I also mentioned that it dovetailed with his "bad boy" character so was apropos in the moment.
Personally, I can’t see how the emergence of “manly” skirts would do anything but open up the mens fashion world to a whole new level and evolve massively. Yes, some will be boring colors and denim. But others won’t. Look at the fashion runways, they are always pushing the envelope. And even if mens skirts somehow inexplicably don’t evolve, won’t there still be skirts for women who will let folks like you still wear whatever you please?
You haven't been paying attention. If the drab men's skirt gains acceptance the idea will stop dead right then and there leaving men with the same drab colour choices in the same idiot fabrics as they have access now. Is that really progress? Well it's jeans again. One leg or two? Choice or merely an ever so slightly larger prison cell?
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:38 am
ScotL wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:58 am
Although you don’t approve of Brad Pitts outfit, I’m curious, do you approve of him as a man wearing a skirt?
Yes, I approve of his wearing a skirt because that should be a basic right. What I objected to was the scruffy look, but note I also mentioned that it dovetailed with his "bad boy" character so was in character.
Personally, I can’t see how the emergence of “manly” skirts would do anything but open up the mens fashion world to a whole new level and evolve massively. Yes, some will be boring colors and denim. But others won’t. Look at the fashion runways, they are always pushing the envelope. And even if mens skirts somehow inexplicably don’t evolve, won’t there still be skirts for women who will let folks like you still wear whatever you please?
You haven't been paying attention. If the drab men's skirt gains acceptance the idea will stop dead right then and there leaving men with the same drab colour choices in the same idiot fabrics as they have access now. Is that really progress? Well it's jeans again. One leg or two? Choice or merely an ever so slightly larger prison cell?
With all due respect, I think I have been paying attention. I just have a different viewpoint. And it’s in an answer to another’s post but I will summarize here.

If a mens line is made, clothing makers will still make women’s skirts. So people like yourself who already buy from that side of the aisle, will see no difference. A mens line will be additive to what’s already there and would go a long way towards the degenderfication (real world) of skirts.

If the mens line starts with drab, boring colors/fabrics, you will still buy the colorful womens skirts. This is additive, not subtractive.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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ScotL wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:44 am
If a mens line is made, clothing makers will still make women’s skirts. So people like yourself who already buy from that side of the aisle, will see no difference. A mens line will be additive to what’s already there and would go a long way towards the degenderfication (real world) of skirts.

If the mens line starts with drab, boring colors/fabrics, you will still buy the colorful womens skirts. This is additive, not subtractive.
In theory, yes, but you're missing several important factors, not the least of which is that you're failing to take into account the Law of Unintended Consequences in your LASER-focus on drab denim skirts and you're also failing to take into account the fact that what we wear influences the way we interact with society at large.

Have you taken into account that if the denim skirt is accepted for guys it's probably only going to be accepted as a "casual" (grunge) look, and the notion will never seep into the (now largely obsolete) world of semi-formal or even formal? Have you taken into account that any guy who, in a world where denim skirts have been accepted, dares wear something bright, fanciful, or of finer fabrics will still be incorrectly lumped into the "transvestite"/"homosexual"/Trans-*" bucket? Progress?

Best to simply de-gender the garment. After all, most everything else that used to be available solely to guys has either been de-gendered or re-gendered to female-only.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:21 pm
ScotL wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:44 am
If a mens line is made, clothing makers will still make women’s skirts. So people like yourself who already buy from that side of the aisle, will see no difference. A mens line will be additive to what’s already there and would go a long way towards the degenderfication (real world) of skirts.

If the mens line starts with drab, boring colors/fabrics, you will still buy the colorful womens skirts. This is additive, not subtractive.
In theory, yes, but you're missing several important factors, not the least of which is that you're failing to take into account the Law of Unintended Consequences in your LASER-focus on drab denim skirts and you're also failing to take into account the fact that what we wear influences the way we interact with society at large.

Have you taken into account that if the denim skirt is accepted for guys it's probably only going to be accepted as a "casual" (grunge) look, and the notion will never seep into the (now largely obsolete) world of semi-formal or even formal? Have you taken into account that any guy who, in a world where denim skirts have been accepted, dares wear something bright, fanciful, or of finer fabrics will still be incorrectly lumped into the "transvestite"/"homosexual"/Trans-*" bucket? Progress?

Best to simply de-gender the garment. After all, most everything else that used to be available solely to guys has either been de-gendered or re-gendered to female-only.
Again, all due respect, but I have taken this into account but do not think it matters how you think it will.

First, I agree, best would be to de-gender all clothing. I see that happening only after gendered clothing gets male and female monikers. When mens skirts and dresses have their own sections, ultimately shops will go to ungendered skirts and dress sections. Maybe I’m wrong, I hope so. But in the beginning, men will not look through the sea of womens clothing to find a skirt that’s for them when they are unsure they really want to wear one. Shops will need to make it easier not harder on men to find what they want. Even online. Google skirts and start looking. There’s too many. The ones men might wear needs to be pointed out.

I didn’t know I was laser focused on denim skirts. I am using that as an example as others have. I do not know why you are harping on them. If denim skirts are accepted and are considered grunge, what’s the harm? They are accepted. That may not be your style, but that’s ok. It is ok for people to have different styles. Honestly, men already dress grunge. If mens skirts add to the grunge look, ok. Who cares. The look is already established. And just cause they are in with grunge, does not mean skirts in general cannot be used for other looks. There are grunge pants but that doesn’t preclude people from wearing other pants for other looks.

To me the law of unintended consequences works both ways. If we demand that mens skirts be any one thing, we will unintentionally alienate people who don’t like that look. Why be laser focused on any one look? Why not be open to the fact that even on this cafe, where this is a niche part of the internet, we have many different looks for men in skirts. I’m in favor of accepting all looks even if it’s not something I’d wear.

To your point about men wearing skirts being labeled trans/gay/transvestite just for wearing colors. Doesn’t that already happen now? That’s what I keep reading on this cafe. If mens skirts exist and are accepted, this will decrease the connection between men in skirts and trans/gay/transvestite bucket because all men will be accepted to wear them.

Transvestism is defined as the wearing of the other genders clothing for sexual gratification. Can’t call a man in a skirt a transvestite if he’s wearing a man’s skirt, now can you.

I still agree that I’d love to de-gender all clothes. So all skirts, boring, drab denim or colorful velvet ones are open to all. Today, it’s a far bigger leap for a man to wear a colorful, silky skirt than for him to wear a boring drab blue denim skirt. Whether we want to accept this fact or not, that’s just reality.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by FLbreezy »

In terms of de-gendering, we probably can't overlook the fact that while there are a lot of different body types (thank goodness, it makes life interesting!) statistically speaking men and women tend to have some structural differences (again, thank goodness for that :lol: ). Some alterations to parameters for a skirt are beneficial to make it fit each gender properly, on average.

I thought we'd already be at this point in technology, but we're not quite there yet: You walk into a 3-d scanning booth (naked or skivvies) and select from the entire range of garments available and some short time later a customized garment appears...not a gendered garment, but a personalized one. Technology to the rescue at last. Although I think I prefer Robert A. Heinlein's ultimate extension of this to where you have a sort of body-paint booth in your abode that you can walk into and get a custom paint job and not have to wear any clothes at all. :shock:
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Grok »

jamie001 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:07 am
What worries me is that if "manly" skirts emerge, the evolution will stop dead there and we'll be constrained to idiot fabrics in drab colours. I make liberal use of quite the opposite; last night I was wearing a silk brocade waistcoat, a lace-cuffed white "pirate" shirt, and a purple satin ankle-length skirt -- very, very different styles.
Good statement of the problem that will certainly occur if men's skirts become more mainstream. We will be constrained to idiot fabrics and drab colors just like men's suits. What shade of black, brown, navy blue, or gray would you like for your skirt?

The designers will try to masculinize men's skirts with a great deal of differentiation between men and women skirts. Designers can't get with the concept that some men may prefer a more feminine look.

In my opinion, this is a complete failure.
Actually, I find the fashion designers to be useless. Its not a matter of masculine vs. feminine, its clown costumes :roll: vs. something men might wear as clothing (in real life).
Last edited by crfriend on Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Tried to fix quoting
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

I agree designers are useless. But then was educated a little from someone who knows the biz. The outrageous clothing that walks down runways is actually not intended to be worn by the general public. The general public will wear toned down variations of what’s on the runways. It’s their way of generating excitement regardless of how clown like it appears
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Big and Bashful »

jamie001 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:07 am
crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:51 pm
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:09 pm
Do you have data to support this? Or is this your gestalt? Though I also have this feeling also, as I read it, I thought is it true?
What worries me is that if "manly" skirts emerge, the evolution will stop dead there and we'll be constrained to idiot fabrics in drab colours. I make liberal use of quite the opposite; last night I was wearing a silk brocade waistcoat, a lace-cuffed white "pirate" shirt, and a purple satin ankle-length skirt -- very, very different styles.
Good statement of the problem that will certainly occur if men's skirts become more mainstream. We will be constrained to idiot fabrics and drab colors just like men's suits. What shade of black, brown, navy blue, or gray would you like for your skirt?

The designers will try to masculinize men's skirts with a great deal of differentiation between men and women skirts. Designers can't get with the concept that some men may prefer a more feminine look.

In my opinion, this is a complete failure.
Sorry, I don't see your logic, even if there is a range of drab heavy practical skirts being produced for the male of the species, there will still be lighter flouncier prettier skirts around for the other half of humanity, nothing to stop you shopping from that side of the aisle if you prefer, just as you can today. Men like me who are uncomfortable in more feminine clothing can stick to our drab choices, there will still be those strange womeny folk who like flowery stuff and if you want skirts like that, I am sure they will still be around!
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Fred in Skirts »

I am sorry guys, but I will wear anything that fits my fancy. Even if it doesn't match or is so outrageous with glaring color miss match that may blind you :pukel: or make you sick. I am not in any way a fashionista no sir, Bobs your uncle :lol:.
I do try to keep it under control by changing it up every couple days though. :laff:
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Grok »

crfriend wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:38 am
If the drab men's skirt gains acceptance the idea will stop dead right then and there leaving men with the same drab colour choices in the same idiot fabrics as they have access now. Is that really progress? Well it's jeans again. One leg or two? Choice or merely an ever so slightly larger prison cell?
In an alternative scenario, I can imagine "stealth skirts"-because they resemble shorts-gaining acceptance. And then...stagnation. For a long time.

We would be left with a somewhat larger prison cell (or coffin).
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

Grok wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:08 am
We would be left with a somewhat larger prison cell (or coffin).
Not much of an improvement to where we are now!
The profusion of verbiage that this thread has produced does not change things one iota.
Fred in Skirts wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:59 pm
I am sorry guys, but I will wear anything that fits my fancy.
I agree but make no apologies to anyone.
I make no judgements on others, so I seek no approval.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Grok wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:08 am
crfriend wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:38 am
If the drab men's skirt gains acceptance the idea will stop dead right then and there leaving men with the same drab colour choices in the same idiot fabrics as they have access now. Is that really progress? Well it's jeans again. One leg or two? Choice or merely an ever so slightly larger prison cell?
In an alternative scenario, I can imagine "stealth skirts"-because they resemble shorts-gaining acceptance. And then...stagnation. For a long time.

We would be left with a somewhat larger prison cell (or coffin).
But these thoughts, all of them, mine and yours and everyone’s, are fictitious possibilities. That skirt wearing by men hasn’t taken off before doesn’t mean it won’t happen in the hopeful near future.

You fear “stealth” or “drab” skirts will limit skirt wearing by mainstream men. This I just don’t understand.

I see two different viewpoints being proffered for the same notion.

1) men will start wearing drab or stealth skirts and this will block men from wearing more colorful, obvious skirts.

Versus

2) Men will start wearing skirts more frequently.

Honestly, I can not see how an increase in men wearing unbifurcated garments is anything but a positive for men wearing skirts.

1) Mainstream men wearing any skirt normalizes skirts on men.

2) You will still wear whatever you want but now do it with other men also wearing a skirt. You didn’t change a bit. Womens skirts will still be there for the choosing.

3) As men wear drab, boring, stealth skirts, they get comfortable with the idea and skirt. First time I put on a skirt/kilt, I felt exposed. Loved the feeling but it took time to get used to the feeling and learn the ways of not exposing the privates.

4) Increasing numbers of men wearing skirts will create a “need” for designers to design more skirts for men. Designers push envelopes. Many of the non drab/stealthy skirts I’ve seen on here could be worn by mainstream men once they get over the fact that it’s a skirt.

5) Some men, even if they start wearing a skirt, will stay with boring drab skirts. Who cares. That’s their style. Many right now are wearing jeans and a flannel as a daily uniform of masculinity. If they even begin to change and wear a skirt, it’d be a miracle. But there is no way they take the leap from boring jeans/flannel combo to mini skirt. That’s reality.

I don’t know why you’re seemingly against more men wearing skirts? In my opinion, men NOT wearing skirts is “stagnation” by definition.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

STEVIE wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:49 am
Grok wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:08 am
We would be left with a somewhat larger prison cell (or coffin).
Not much of an improvement to where we are now!
The profusion of verbiage that this thread has produced does not change things one iota.
This notion of more men wearing skirts as a bad thing is absolutely perplexing to me and the last thing I thought I’d hear on a website described as “an online community dedicated to exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men”
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by crfriend »

STEVIE wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:49 am
I make no judgements on others, so I seek no approval.
I agree. The naysayers really should get out of the way of the guys who are actually doing things in real life.

Did Robert Goddard give up on liquid-fuelled rockets merely because The New York Times said it wouldn't work? Heck, no, and look where it got us. Who did Werner von Braun mention by name following the successful moon landings? Robert Goddard.
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