A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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steamman
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by steamman »

“Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.”
Exactly. That’s the conversation I had with my wife when I plucked up the courage to tell her I wanted to wear skirts. She more or less said that she didn’t want her man to be “the first”. Hence, I wear skirts when she is not around and it’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” type understanding. Frustrating to say the least.
Last edited by Uncle Al on Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed/Corrected quoting format
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gender free universe
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by gender free universe »

steamman wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:30 pm
“Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.”
Exactly. That’s the conversation I had with my wife when I plucked up the courage to tell her I wanted to wear skirts. She more or less said that she didn’t want her man to be “the first”. Hence, I wear skirts when she is not around and it’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” type understanding. Frustrating to say the least.
My wife reacted in the same way, but then noticed that I wasn't competing with her. She's still way more attractive than me because my look is very different from hers in a skirt. I'm just not feminized. Now she likes my look and she thinks I should wear more skirts with cargo pockets and avoid floral patterns.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by gender free universe »

STEVIE wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:39 pm
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
In my student surveys, about 70% of women think skirts suit men if the style is right. A third of women find men in skirts sexy.
How big was your sample and do you believe that your students are truly representative of the general population.
Another statistic, from the UK, 90% of woman support men in skirts except when it involves their own partners.
The third that you say find skirts on men sexy are likely thinking of Kilts.
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
Skirts for men are available from many designers. You can see them at almost every fashion show. The problem is that retailers are much more conservative than fashion creators, which increases their concerns about hitting the necessary sales targets to break even. So far, only H&M and ZARA have tested the market in 2012 and 2019 when offering men's skirts in selected stores or only online. They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
Sorry but until the retailers are convinced clothes will be gender labelled. The creatives can show all they wish, and celebrities' wear whatever, it will make no difference.
Steve.
Right, retail is the problem. Some experts say the problem will only be solved when there is a change of generations. The baby boomers in the business have yet to retire.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by gender free universe »

ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 am
STEVIE wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:13 am
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:35 am
I live the data being a scientist. Do you remember your source?
Sorry Scot, as a non-scientist, I don't "live the data".
It was just one of those things that emerged from some article that was being discussed around here.
However, "difficulties with partners" is a very common thread in the cafe too.
Do also remember that this can be an emotive and emotional issue logic and statistics are only half the story.
For instance, we don't have an accurate idea of how many men wear "feminine" attire to any level
The best evidence we have right now is that;
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
. Referring to H&M and Zaras' attempts and no cause for optimism either, I hate to say.
From a retail angle, a guy who really wants a skirt will buy one anyway from the female ranges.
Job done, money in register and Mr Retailer hasn't had to do anything extra except smile sweetly.
Zara and H&Ms' experience would certainly appear to prove him right.
The change may happen at any time and could be huge but don't hold your breath.
Steve.
I was just asking for the source so I could read more. Too bad you can’t remember the source. The fact you and GFU are quoting 70% and 90% of women approve men in skirts is an amazingly high number. If that data got out to the general public, it would be wonderful. Men are driven by the desire to be attractive to women.

If anyone knows these sources, please let the cafe know. That’s powerful data.
The data comes from a recent study I did with students at our university. It is statistically significant. I would like to discuss it scientifically because we did this for the first time as part of a project on market research methods. However, as long as the results are not published, this can only be done confidentially via email. Send me a message and I'll get in touch.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:37 am
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 am
The fact you and GFU are quoting 70% and 90% of women approve men in skirts is an amazingly high number. If that data got out to the general public, it would be wonderful. Men are driven by the desire to be attractive to women.
Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.
Do you have data to support this? Or is this your gestalt? Though I also have this feeling also, as I read it, I thought is it true?

I think most women wouldn’t want their men dressed up
In Uber feminine stuff. I wonder if they would object to masculine appearing outfits that encompass a skirt. Like Brad Pitt. We can make the argument that it looked unrefined and had a male drab color scheme, but it looked masculine. If you ask a woman if she wants her man to wear a skirt, does she picture a drag Queen or Brad Pitt in a skirt? If it’s drag Queen, my suspicion is no, they don’t want that. Brad Pitt…
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

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ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:09 pm
Do you have data to support this? Or is this your gestalt? Though I also have this feeling also, as I read it, I thought is it true?
The sentiment is based on quite a bit of commentary here, several news snippets, and conversations with assorted women friends (yes, I have several, but not a significant other). In fact it came up last night when I was chatting with one and mentioned some things about my hopeful down south, and some of the problems that would need to be overcome, and that precise matter came up. When I mentioned that she was five-feet-zero and I'm six-foot-four, my friend here practically gushed, "Oh, my god how cute you two would be!" to which I commented, "But there are problems. She's a member of the shredded denim and flip-flop brigade; next to me she would look like a rag-doll." I was rewarded with a sad nod. I suspect the women want to retain the limelight.

To the matter of Brad Pitt and his skirt... Put bluntly, I think he looked scruffy and inelegant -- which fits his "bad boy" image. I don't know if that rumpled mess he was wearing was a high/low design or merely the way he was wearing it, but the overall look, shall we say, was "not compelling". What worries me is that if "manly" skirts emerge, the evolution will stop dead there and we'll be constrained to idiot fabrics in drab colours. I make liberal use of quite the opposite; last night I was wearing a silk brocade waistcoat, a lace-cuffed white "pirate" shirt, and a purple satin ankle-length skirt -- very, very different styles.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Coder »

ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:09 pm
I think most women wouldn’t want their men dressed up
In Uber feminine stuff. I wonder if they would object to masculine appearing outfits that encompass a skirt. Like Brad Pitt. We can make the argument that it looked unrefined and had a male drab color scheme, but it looked masculine. If you ask a woman if she wants her man to wear a skirt, does she picture a drag Queen or Brad Pitt in a skirt? If it’s drag Queen, my suspicion is no, they don’t want that. Brad Pitt…
Or flip the script - would you be OK if your wife/spouse "butched it up"? Now... because women can wear practically anything this doesn't make a lot of sense, having a hard time thinking what this would even mean.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:59 pm
Or flip the script - would you be OK if your wife/spouse "butched it up"? Now... because women can wear practically anything this doesn't make a lot of sense, having a hard time thinking what this would even mean.
Men have no say in the matter. The wife wants to shear all her hair off she goes for it. Tattoos? She goes for it. Piercings? Ditto. Hurt feelings on the part of the man are of no consequence. (BTDT, have the scars)

Of course once the public shock wears off and if the guy has a lick of fashion sense she'll quickly realise that she looks utterly ridiculous standing next to him, which will likely only make matters worse for the man.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by jamie001 »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:51 pm
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:09 pm
Do you have data to support this? Or is this your gestalt? Though I also have this feeling also, as I read it, I thought is it true?
What worries me is that if "manly" skirts emerge, the evolution will stop dead there and we'll be constrained to idiot fabrics in drab colours. I make liberal use of quite the opposite; last night I was wearing a silk brocade waistcoat, a lace-cuffed white "pirate" shirt, and a purple satin ankle-length skirt -- very, very different styles.
Good statement of the problem that will certainly occur if men's skirts become more mainstream. We will be constrained to idiot fabrics and drab colors just like men's suits. What shade of black, brown, navy blue, or gray would you like for your skirt?

The designers will try to masculinize men's skirts with a great deal of differentiation between men and women skirts. Designers can't get with the concept that some men may prefer a more feminine look.

In my opinion, this is a complete failure.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by crfriend »

jamie001 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:07 am
The designers will try to masculinize men's skirts with a great deal of differentiation between men and women skirts. Designers can't get with the concept that some men may prefer a more feminine look.
In my mind it is neither "masculine" nor "feminine", but rather one's own look. Nothing more and nothing less. That is why I espouse the notion of finding one's own style.

In spite of still being single and unattached, I get more compliments on my "look" than I can shake a stick at -- and these come at me from men, women, and children [1]. Here I am, a classic bloke who happens to have a taste for velvet, satin, lace, and graceful flowy lines -- and I stand tall when wearing them.

To the point of women not wanting their man to dress so (or to upstage them), I believe I may be an exemplar of that problem. Thus I remain a singleton, but at least unencumbered by the problems that relationships can bring.


[1] Thank goodness for children. Departing my local this afternoon I was following a family unit out and a young girl was continually looking back at me. I finally spoke up nothing, "It's OK, I don't bite!" with a smile. Mom, who had daughter in tow commented that she (daughter) loved my outfit, and then the little one spoke up and mentioned that I'd dropped something in the parking-lot. The "something" turned out to be my powerful pair of close-in reading-glasses that had, indeed, gone overboard, likely caught by my the strap for my purse. Mom beat me to the mark and I noticed them on the ground and picked them up thanking all profusely because without those I am fairly useless when it comes to reading books or doing fine work like sewing (yes, I can) or the electronics which I adore so much. Blessed be the little one this time!
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Freedomforall »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:37 am
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 am
The fact you and GFU are quoting 70% and 90% of women approve men in skirts is an amazingly high number. If that data got out to the general public, it would be wonderful. Men are driven by the desire to be attractive to women.
Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.
Perhaps men said the same as women began to wear pants. Interesting how clothing, gender, and humans have had this dance back and forth throughout history. This all is nothing new.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:51 pm
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:09 pm
Do you have data to support this? Or is this your gestalt? Though I also have this feeling also, as I read it, I thought is it true?
The sentiment is based on quite a bit of commentary here, several news snippets, and conversations with assorted women friends (yes, I have several, but not a significant other). In fact it came up last night when I was chatting with one and mentioned some things about my hopeful down south, and some of the problems that would need to be overcome, and that precise matter came up. When I mentioned that she was five-feet-zero and I'm six-foot-four, my friend here practically gushed, "Oh, my god how cute you two would be!" to which I commented, "But there are problems. She's a member of the shredded denim and flip-flop brigade; next to me she would look like a rag-doll." I was rewarded with a sad nod. I suspect the women want to retain the limelight.

To the matter of Brad Pitt and his skirt... Put bluntly, I think he looked scruffy and inelegant -- which fits his "bad boy" image. I don't know if that rumpled mess he was wearing was a high/low design or merely the way he was wearing it, but the overall look, shall we say, was "not compelling". What worries me is that if "manly" skirts emerge, the evolution will stop dead there and we'll be constrained to idiot fabrics in drab colours. I make liberal use of quite the opposite; last night I was wearing a silk brocade waistcoat, a lace-cuffed white "pirate" shirt, and a purple satin ankle-length skirt -- very, very different styles.
Please don’t take this the wrong way as I mean no disrespect. But the comments from a men wearing skirts forum and women you speak with who (guessing here) likely know you wear skirts, are likely biased. I feel really getting data to support or refute the claim that women are happy if other men, but not their men wear skirts will be incredibly difficult to get an accurate answer. GFU seems to be in the field and can likely speak much more eloquently to the difficulty in social science research.

Although you don’t approve of Brad Pitts outfit, I’m curious, do you approve of him as a man wearing a skirt?

Personally, I can’t see how the emergence of “manly” skirts would do anything but open up the mens fashion world to a whole new level and evolve massively. Yes, some will be boring colors and denim. But others won’t. Look at the fashion runways, they are always pushing the envelope. And even if mens skirts somehow inexplicably don’t evolve, won’t there still be skirts for women who will let folks like you still wear whatever you please?

I really can’t see how opening up mens fashion to skirt wearing is anything but a great thing? What am I missing
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

gender free universe wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:16 pm
steamman wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:30 pm
“Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.”
Exactly. That’s the conversation I had with my wife when I plucked up the courage to tell her I wanted to wear skirts. She more or less said that she didn’t want her man to be “the first”. Hence, I wear skirts when she is not around and it’s a “don’t ask, don’t tell” type understanding. Frustrating to say the least.
My wife reacted in the same way, but then noticed that I wasn't competing with her. She's still way more attractive than me because my look is very different from hers in a skirt. I'm just not feminized. Now she likes my look and she thinks I should wear more skirts with cargo pockets and avoid floral patterns.
Interesting, hadn’t thought of the “he’ll look better than me” aspect of this.

I think you hit on a bigger issue. Wives/SOs are likely not opposed to the idea after they see the look but before they see it, their minds run wild with all sorts of horrible thoughts. My wife was remarkably open and encouraging when I wore traditional looking kilts (though all apologies to the true Scotsmen, they ain’t traditional kilts). Branching out into skirts, she’s less comfortable and way less encouraging. I’ve got a few now and she does not approve of the more feminine ones. But plain ones and ones that look more masculine, she approves. I think like most things, familiarity will breed acceptance and then allow my skirts to not necessarily be masculine for her approval
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Freedomforall wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:38 am
crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:37 am
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 am
The fact you and GFU are quoting 70% and 90% of women approve men in skirts is an amazingly high number. If that data got out to the general public, it would be wonderful. Men are driven by the desire to be attractive to women.
Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.
Perhaps men said the same as women began to wear pants. Interesting how clothing, gender, and humans have had this dance back and forth throughout history. This all is nothing new.
I recall that was one of the problems. Men didn’t want their women looking like men. Until the world wars started and dresses didn’t jive with riveting.
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Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

jamie001 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:07 am
crfriend wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:51 pm
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:09 pm
Do you have data to support this? Or is this your gestalt? Though I also have this feeling also, as I read it, I thought is it true?
What worries me is that if "manly" skirts emerge, the evolution will stop dead there and we'll be constrained to idiot fabrics in drab colours. I make liberal use of quite the opposite; last night I was wearing a silk brocade waistcoat, a lace-cuffed white "pirate" shirt, and a purple satin ankle-length skirt -- very, very different styles.
Good statement of the problem that will certainly occur if men's skirts become more mainstream. We will be constrained to idiot fabrics and drab colors just like men's suits. What shade of black, brown, navy blue, or gray would you like for your skirt?

The designers will try to masculinize men's skirts with a great deal of differentiation between men and women skirts. Designers can't get with the concept that some men may prefer a more feminine look.

In my opinion, this is a complete failure.
I just don’t see it that way. If mens skirts become a thing, what’s gonna stop manufacturers from continuing to make the same skirts for women? The way I see it, at a minimum, the only change will be the introduction of a mens line.

And to say they will stop at drab boring fabrics. Why? And even if they do, won’t there still be womens skirts that will be all manner of colors and fabrics? Don’t we argue here that a skirt is a skirt and not gendered??

So opening up even a drab, boring fabric line will only increase the number of options.
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