A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Post Reply
User avatar
gender free universe
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:18 am
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by gender free universe »

Thesis: Skirts are the future because the future is going equal and therefore getting genderless

Men tend to see themselves as the benchmark for everything. That seems to be part of the patriarchal heritage and is the main reason why some men believe to lose something if they copy anything from women - but that is once again a fallacy. Especially compared with historical men's fashion, you quickly realize that much of what is considered feminine in fashion today was considered very masculine in earlier times.

Masculinity doesn't have to be the opposite of femininity. In addition, it is always beneficial when boundaries can be overcome and horizons expanded. If skirts had no advantages, then women would have given up wearing them with the introduction of women's pants. Obviously, in addition to arbitrary gender attributions, a skirt also has some aesthetic and very practical features. Sweeping skirts are comfortable and non-constricting in the crotch. Compared to pants they are mercifully breezy. It is very refreshing to enjoy the difference on a hot summer day.

Why do we need cultural genders? Aren't they relics of old societies? Haven't men, just because of women’s liberation, been able to develop more diverse? Didn't it help them to free themselves from dominant, oppressive, and sometimes violent alpha males, especially when they operate in a networked manner at the workplace? Wouldn't reform of gender roles promote a more respectful and harmonious interaction between the sexes? On top of that, it takes away the social pressure to perform normative manliness. Liberating clothing from the constraints of gender-affirming connotations makes it easier for men to reject archaic and often toxic ideals of masculinity.

Doesn't community life become easier abandoning role assignments completely? Why continue to invest so much energy in a few innate differences when we share so many more traits? Nowadays, men can swaddle babies, and women fly fighter jets. Do we still need gender-indicating regulations with specific clothing? Does gender have to be a public affair with different sets of symbols and connotated attire we put on every morning? Why don't we just allow people to be themselves? Why can't gender simply be the personal expression of an individual?

Marking gender differently defines their different status. This creates a ranking and even hierarchies. That is not quite conducive to general equality. Conventions define sets of rules for groups that build barriers separating people. This is especially true when large groups use their power to make their way of life the rule and standard for others.

Fashion without limits makes us happy because freedom always makes people happy. Freedom allows us to walk paths that are made just for us. Freedom does not divide society but adds shades of refinement to it. There is so much more to experience in a colorful world. Diversity unites because there is so much more to share.
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

Hi GFU,
Welcome to the cafe.
There is no one here who would argue against your eloquent plea, but we are tiny insignificant minority.
It is only by venturing out into the big bad old world as men in skirts that we are likely to bring that degree of change in societal attitude.
For myself, I rather enjoy doing just that and every day too, great fun!
Steve.
Barleymower
Active Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:28 pm

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:18 am
Hi GFU,
Welcome to the cafe.
There is no one here who would argue against your eloquent plea, but we are tiny insignificant minority.
It is only by venturing out into the big bad old world as men in skirts that we are likely to bring that degree of change in societal attitude.
For myself, I rather enjoy doing just that and every day too, great fun!
Steve.
Totally agree with the arguments. To make it happen:
1. The fashion industry must make it accessible to men.
2. Those in the eye of the camera must promote it.
3. Women need to accept that masculinity takes many forms.
4. Men must not punish those who do what they are afraid to do.
5. We provide the words for the media to write articles.
6. We go out there and show everyone there is nothing to be afraid of.
User avatar
gender free universe
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:18 am
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by gender free universe »

Still tiny but gaining momentum. The fashion industry is currently doing a lot of market research because a fundamental generational change is about to tip. It seems that some developments of Generation Y will be reinforced in Generation Z. Market data show that around every second consumer from Generation Z is shopping outside of the gender category assigned to them. If this continues, and everything points to it, then in about 5-10 years there will not only be much more diverse men's fashion, but also new men. Men's skirts coverage in the media has increased by almost 200% in the last five years. I see a growing number of make-up ads appealing to young men in drugstores. In a survey, 13% of my students said they regularly use either subtle lipstick, eyeliner, blush, or powder. I never would have thought that skirts would even appear in the once macho rap scene. In fact, the rapper scene has become the music genre where skirts are worn more often than average.
Image
ScotL
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Well said sir! Nicely worded thesis.
User avatar
gender free universe
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:18 am
Location: Kaohsiung, Taiwan

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by gender free universe »

Barleymower wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:37 am
STEVIE wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 5:18 am
Hi GFU,
Welcome to the cafe.
There is no one here who would argue against your eloquent plea, but we are tiny insignificant minority.
It is only by venturing out into the big bad old world as men in skirts that we are likely to bring that degree of change in societal attitude.
For myself, I rather enjoy doing just that and every day too, great fun!
Steve.
Totally agree with the arguments. To make it happen:
1. The fashion industry must make it accessible to men.
2. Those in the eye of the camera must promote it.
3. Women need to accept that masculinity takes many forms.
4. Men must not punish those who do what they are afraid to do.
5. We provide the words for the media to write articles.
6. We go out there and show everyone there is nothing to be afraid of.
Dear Barleymower,
Here are a few short answers:
1. The fashion industry must make it accessible to men.
Skirts for men are available from many designers. You can see them at almost every fashion show. The problem is that retailers are much more conservative than fashion creators, which increases their concerns about hitting the necessary sales targets to break even. So far, only H&M and ZARA have tested the market in 2012 and 2019 when offering men's skirts in selected stores or only online. They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
2. Those in the eye of the camera must promote it.
Compared to Gaultier, who only had David Beckham as a prominent testimonial in the 80s, the current designers, and especially Thom Browne have much more celebrity support.
3. Women need to accept that masculinity takes many forms.
The women are the least problem. In my student surveys, about 70% of women think skirts suit men if the style is right. A third of women find men in skirts sexy.
4. Men must not punish those who do what they are afraid to do.
Men often have reservations about wearing skirts because they fear a loss of prestige towards their buddies. The idea that skirts are something feminine is much more pronounced in men than in women.
5. We provide the words for the media to write articles.
Any change requires action to achieve it. I talk a lot about gender in fashion when I lecture on marketing and market research. I am currently collecting content for a book and am still looking for collaborators for feedback and corrections. Tell me if you want more details or if you are considering working with our team.
6. We go out there and show everyone there is nothing to be afraid of.
I agree completely. Most people at least accept men in skirts that look manly. Even on the conservative side, I'm well accepted. I have not experienced any negative reactions in Europe, East Asia, or in Dubai and Egypt. However, that changes quickly as soon as an outfit looks queer. I've already tried that as a test (on save terrain).
Coder
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1299
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:40 am

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Coder »

gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
4. Men must not punish those who do what they are afraid to do.
Men often have reservations about wearing skirts because they fear a loss of prestige towards their buddies. The idea that skirts are something feminine is much more pronounced in men than in women.
This comment rings so true it hurts.
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
In my student surveys, about 70% of women think skirts suit men if the style is right. A third of women find men in skirts sexy.
How big was your sample and do you believe that your students are truly representative of the general population.
Another statistic, from the UK, 90% of woman support men in skirts except when it involves their own partners.
The third that you say find skirts on men sexy are likely thinking of Kilts.
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
Skirts for men are available from many designers. You can see them at almost every fashion show. The problem is that retailers are much more conservative than fashion creators, which increases their concerns about hitting the necessary sales targets to break even. So far, only H&M and ZARA have tested the market in 2012 and 2019 when offering men's skirts in selected stores or only online. They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
Sorry but until the retailers are convinced clothes will be gender labelled. The creatives can show all they wish, and celebrities' wear whatever, it will make no difference.
Steve.
Ozdelights
Junior Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 16, 2022 1:29 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Ozdelights »

It will take longer but if smaller or niche retailers start supplying the market and it grows you can be sure the majors will not want to miss out.
ScotL
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 4:43 pm
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
4. Men must not punish those who do what they are afraid to do.
Men often have reservations about wearing skirts because they fear a loss of prestige towards their buddies. The idea that skirts are something feminine is much more pronounced in men than in women.
This comment rings so true it hurts.
Agreed. My brain had the same reaction when I read number four. I don’t know the data source that states so many women want men to wear skirts, but all of this shows the biggest detractor to men wearing skirts is men themselves. The one group who actually controls what men wear.
ScotL
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

STEVIE wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:39 pm
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
In my student surveys, about 70% of women think skirts suit men if the style is right. A third of women find men in skirts sexy.
How big was your sample and do you believe that your students are truly representative of the general population.
Another statistic, from the UK, 90% of woman support men in skirts except when it involves their own partners.
The third that you say find skirts on men sexy are likely thinking of Kilts.
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
Skirts for men are available from many designers. You can see them at almost every fashion show. The problem is that retailers are much more conservative than fashion creators, which increases their concerns about hitting the necessary sales targets to break even. So far, only H&M and ZARA have tested the market in 2012 and 2019 when offering men's skirts in selected stores or only online. They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
Sorry but until the retailers are convinced clothes will be gender labelled. The creatives can show all they wish, and celebrities' wear whatever, it will make no difference.
Steve.
I live the data being a scientist. Do you remember your source?
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by STEVIE »

ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:35 am
I live the data being a scientist. Do you remember your source?
Sorry Scot, as a non-scientist, I don't "live the data".
It was just one of those things that emerged from some article that was being discussed around here.
However, "difficulties with partners" is a very common thread in the cafe too.
Do also remember that this can be an emotive and emotional issue logic and statistics are only half the story.
For instance, we don't have an accurate idea of how many men wear "feminine" attire to any level
The best evidence we have right now is that;
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
. Referring to H&M and Zaras' attempts and no cause for optimism either, I hate to say.
From a retail angle, a guy who really wants a skirt will buy one anyway from the female ranges.
Job done, money in register and Mr Retailer hasn't had to do anything extra except smile sweetly.
Zara and H&Ms' experience would certainly appear to prove him right.
The change may happen at any time and could be huge but don't hold your breath.
Steve.
Barleymower
Active Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:28 pm

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by Barleymower »

STEVIE wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:39 pm
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
In my student surveys, about 70% of women think skirts suit men if the style is right. A third of women find men in skirts sexy.
How big was your sample and do you believe that your students are truly representative of the general population.
Another statistic, from the UK, 90% of woman support men in skirts except when it involves their own partners.
I love my wife and we have a good relationship. There would however be a flaming row for what I'm about to say.
Women say one thing and do another. Sometimes I feel that they are a cauldron of witches peering over at us.
ScotL
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:43 am

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by ScotL »

STEVIE wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:13 am
ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:35 am
I live the data being a scientist. Do you remember your source?
Sorry Scot, as a non-scientist, I don't "live the data".
It was just one of those things that emerged from some article that was being discussed around here.
However, "difficulties with partners" is a very common thread in the cafe too.
Do also remember that this can be an emotive and emotional issue logic and statistics are only half the story.
For instance, we don't have an accurate idea of how many men wear "feminine" attire to any level
The best evidence we have right now is that;
gender free universe wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:03 pm
They haven't even come close to breaking even and stopped further initiatives.
. Referring to H&M and Zaras' attempts and no cause for optimism either, I hate to say.
From a retail angle, a guy who really wants a skirt will buy one anyway from the female ranges.
Job done, money in register and Mr Retailer hasn't had to do anything extra except smile sweetly.
Zara and H&Ms' experience would certainly appear to prove him right.
The change may happen at any time and could be huge but don't hold your breath.
Steve.
I was just asking for the source so I could read more. Too bad you can’t remember the source. The fact you and GFU are quoting 70% and 90% of women approve men in skirts is an amazingly high number. If that data got out to the general public, it would be wonderful. Men are driven by the desire to be attractive to women.

If anyone knows these sources, please let the cafe know. That’s powerful data.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 13225
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: A plea for skirts as a degendering measure

Post by crfriend »

ScotL wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 am
The fact you and GFU are quoting 70% and 90% of women approve men in skirts is an amazingly high number. If that data got out to the general public, it would be wonderful. Men are driven by the desire to be attractive to women.
Therein lies the rub. Whilst women may be notionally supportive of men wearing skirts, and they may actually be attracted to them, women almost to a one categorically state, "Not on my man." thereby scuppering the notion in any practical sense.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Post Reply