Question

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
ScotL
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Question

Post by ScotL »

Would people on this cafe mind if all skirts for men were called kilts?
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r.m.anderson
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Re: Question

Post by r.m.anderson »

I would.
All kilts are a form of a skirt
BUT
Only a small number of skirts can be called kilts
Pleats tartans and plaids and wrap over aprons being foremost

And most certainly the Scots will have much to say about this - - -
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
Coder
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Re: Question

Post by Coder »

ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:04 pm
Would people on this cafe mind if all skirts for men were called kilts?
Yes:

1) The kilt is a very specific garment, and it's unfair to the kilt's heritage to muddy the waters.

2) It feels overly politically correct.

3) Most people will roll their eyes "that's not a kilt, it's a skirt. Just call it a skirt"

4) Finally, why would men be afraid of buying a skirt? This didn't convey what I was trying to say. I was trying to say: "If a man won't wear a skirt when it's called a skirt, but will when it's called a kilt, why go through the mental gymnastics and call it what it isn't? Why be embarassed about wearing a skirt.
Big and Bashful
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Re: Question

Post by Big and Bashful »

Well I live in Scotland, I have been in a grocery store and an old friend asked me why I had a kilt on. The “kilt” was a denim cargo skirt. If a Scot wants to call my blue denim cargo skirt a kilt, I am not going to argue!
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Stu
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Re: Question

Post by Stu »

As a linguist specialising in semantics, I would say there is a logic to NOT expanding the word "kilt" to refer to other types of garment. Once people start using the word "kilt" for any skirt, then the meaning of the noun "kilt" would change and it would be understood as any skirt worn by a man. That would then deprive the original garment of its name and those who have a cultural affection for the traditional Scottish kilt would find they had to either extend the word by, e.g. thereafter specifying them to be "Highland kilts", or coining a new word. Should we be stealing a word which has such strong cultural associations?

The beauty of the word "skirt" is that it is a verb as well, as in "the village was skirted by five cattle farms". When women first started wearing trousers/pants, they retained the name for the garment - they didn't seek to distance their choice of attire from garments worn by men. My view is that, if we dodge the word "skirt", we are suggesting men are demeaning themselves if they don garments which have a female association. While I am no feminist (perish the thought!), I think that is a bit insulting to the women and girls in our lives. I feel the same way about the rather silly attempts to distinguish other products to stop them sounding feminine, like saying a man has a "manbag" or is wearing "manscara". If you have the balls to wear a skirt - call it what it is.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Question

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Yes!

All kilts are skirts, but all skirts are not kilts.
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
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Stu
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Re: Question

Post by Stu »

Fred in Skirts wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:27 pm
Yes!
All kilts are skirts, but all skirts are not kilts.
Yup. It's what we call "hyponymy".

It's like saying "All rapiers are swords, but not all swords are rapiers"
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Re: Question

Post by rivegauche »

Interesting that the ones who are cool with this suggestion are the Scots. Me too. If it helps get men into skirts then let it go - it is not the end of the world. I would rather they were called kilts than man skirts. Anyone who needs to can specify traditional tartan kilt.
ScotL
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Re: Question

Post by ScotL »

rivegauche wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:32 pm
Interesting that the ones who are cool with this suggestion are the Scots. Me too. If it helps get men into skirts then let it go - it is not the end of the world. I would rather they were called kilts than man skirts. Anyone who needs to can specify traditional tartan kilt.
This is what I have been thinking about.

I’ve worn the kilt and been accepted as a man. I’ve had the experience that an incredulous someone asked if I was wearing a skirt but was ok that I was wearing a kilt. Kilts are associated with manly men (see Braveheart).

The man card strongly opposes letting men be adventurous with clothing. The male ego is frail and needs to be mollycoddled.

So I wonder, what’s the harm of naming all skirts worn by men “kilts”? As Rivegauche astutely details, if calling male’s skirts “kilts” satisfies the fragile male ego’s concern about accepting a man wearing a skirt then what’s in a name? Just like the emperor’s new clothes.

I agree with everyone above that yes, they are different. And yes, all kilts are skirts but not all skirts are kilts. And sure, Scotland deserves her kilt to be respected.

But honestly, if calling all skirts on men kilts (regardless of what side of the aisle it came from) and this allows men to feel comfortable to even try one, shouldn’t we embrace/encourage this?

Does the name associated with the garment really matter that much to you? Everyone on this cafe will wear their skirts regardless of what they’re called. But this is a struggle to change the “hearts and minds” of those who have not drunk the Kool aid on men wearing skirts.
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Re: Question

Post by Coder »

ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:50 pm
Does the name associated with the garment really matter that much to you? Everyone on this cafe will wear their skirts regardless of what they’re called. But this is a struggle to change the “hearts and minds” of those who have not drunk the Kool aid on men wearing skirts.
I keep going back to #2 in my response.

I personally don't care - but at the same time it feels like a cop-out.

However - if society decided to call men's skirts "kilts" I'd go along with it and if someone asked me, "Oh, is that a skirt?" I'd sarcastically/ironically/wink-in-my-eye say, "Oh no, you must be mistaken, this is a men's kilt". But I hope it doesn't come to that.
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Re: Question

Post by FLbreezy »

I'd prefer calling it what it is, an UBGCTLHOTB*.

I suppose if calling it a kilt helps make it more beginner-friendly to the UBGCTLHOTB-curious male, then sure go for it. Heck, these people are marketing an apron to men as a kilt. Maybe it will open their eyes to other possibilities.

As for me, I'm a grown man and I'll wear whatever I damn want, regardless of the label people want to slap on it (or me, for that matter).


*un-bifurcated garment covering the lower half of the body
Midas
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Re: Question

Post by Midas »

A kilt is very different from a skirt. I would never choose to wear a kilt.

If the same word were to be used for both it would be more appropriate to call all kilts skirts.

What’s wrong with calling a kilt a kilt and a skirt a skirt?
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Re: Question

Post by Coder »

FLbreezy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:49 pm
I suppose if calling it a kilt helps make it more beginner-friendly to the UBGCTLHOTB-curious male, then sure go for it. Heck, these people are marketing an apron to men as a kilt. Maybe it will open their eyes to other possibilities.
That's hilarious (in an ironic way - not LOL/mean). It's unfortunate they didn't have it do a full-wrap as that would be more kilt-like. You can buy additional panels to do a 360:

https://www.grillkilt.com/collections/a ... s-above-42


Looks like it has full coverage, but I'd be leery of wearing just the apron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnw4bUneVVU

Tove Wear made a kilt version of their Maker Skirt tis past year but it's no longer on their website. Besides the expense, either they didn't sell well of they are between batches.
Last edited by Coder on Sat Sep 10, 2022 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ScotL
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Re: Question

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:29 pm
ScotL wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:50 pm
Does the name associated with the garment really matter that much to you? Everyone on this cafe will wear their skirts regardless of what they’re called. But this is a struggle to change the “hearts and minds” of those who have not drunk the Kool aid on men wearing skirts.
I keep going back to #2 in my response.

I personally don't care - but at the same time it feels like a cop-out.

However - if society decided to call men's skirts "kilts" I'd go along with it and if someone asked me, "Oh, is that a skirt?" I'd sarcastically/ironically/wink-in-my-eye say, "Oh no, you must be mistaken, this is a men's kilt". But I hope it doesn't come to that.
It’s a cop out. Definitely. In a perfect world we should be able to say we are going to wear a skirt and society is going to accept us. And in this perfect world, you never would experience the nerves you so eloquently wrote about in your thread on Coders Outfits (awesome read, thanks again).

But we live in an imperfect world where your nerves, my nerves and everyone’s nerves on this cafe elucidate just how imperfect this world is.

So I reiterate, the words kilt and skirts are just that, words. Think of the difference between briefs and panties. Two words for basically the same thing. One for men. One for women. Yes, slight differences but I can imagine a skirt made for a man also would have slight differences given the difference in hip to waist ratios between men and women.

But if the word kilt is accepted by manly men as a fashion choice and they start accepting them more, that’s a win. I have already experienced that society accepts a man in a kilt. In fact, my interactions have been laudatory for the kilt.

Words won’t matter to us but could mean acceptance of skirts on men by society.

How much do you really care what the garment is called?? I just care to wear it
ScotL
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Re: Question

Post by ScotL »

FLbreezy wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:49 pm
I'd prefer calling it what it is, an UBGCTLHOTB*.

I suppose if calling it a kilt helps make it more beginner-friendly to the UBGCTLHOTB-curious male, then sure go for it. Heck, these people are marketing an apron to men as a kilt. Maybe it will open their eyes to other possibilities.

As for me, I'm a grown man and I'll wear whatever I damn want, regardless of the label people want to slap on it (or me, for that matter).


*un-bifurcated garment covering the lower half of the body
I’m really glad you do.

But think about those who right now are not wearing them. They are not going to be instantly in favor of it not try them. They need to be eased into it. And allowing them to call all mens skirts a kilt, because of course it’s made for men and is manly, would go a long way towards acceptance.
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