Question

[mishawakaskirt]

The psyche is a strange thing.
Why one word is easier to say, or more acceptible than another word.
I even cringe a little at the thought of mentioning wearing a skirt to people but I'm not going to tell people my skirt is a kilt. It's best to gently to correct people on what it really is.

While I like the thought of separate names skirt for women kilt for men.
Ultimately just call it what it is. Off hand I can't think of any other objects that have a different name based on which sex is using it.
And I feel like muddies up the story of the kilt.
Dare I say it may make us appear to be dense.
I can almost hear some one thinking "that crazy old man thinks he's wearing a kilt."
The story of the emperor's new clothes come to mind.

While I'd love to call my skirts something else, It doesn't change a thing a skirt is still a skirt.
Or a kilt is a kilt
Ultimately it doesn't matter what you call it.

Here's a list of creative names for other than calling it a skirt.

Calling it a denim mono tube.
Curtains to cover the greatest show on earth.
A tarp to cover the tool shed.
Rip van winky s cloak
Batman's cape
The thunder dome
Twinkie or twinkle tarp
Open air batting cage
My bull pen
Pasture for my pony

At the end of the day some people are going to think you rock.
Others will think you are off your rocker. Some people will be bothered by it, and some won't bother to care.
Some will think your over board, and some will be on board.
Everyone has an opinion on Men in skirts. Make the best first impression you can make


If someone steps out enough to comment on your skirt or kilt in a nice way. Respond in a nice way and you can easily correct them with out doing it directly.

Person approaches you, "nice kilt.?.?.?"
You are really wearing a skirt. You could could say "thank you, Some time ago decided to give one a try, turns out I like it, and then lately I have seen several news stories about men in kilts and or skirts, like very recently Brad Pitt wearing skirts.
it turns out it's very comfortable for a man to wear a skirt." Politely answer any other questions.

If you are talking with a man you then you have the opportunity to say " you should consider giving it a try.
If BRAD PITT can rock a SKIRT and I can rock a SKIRT, then there is no reason you can't rock a SKIRT too
Skeptical? kilts are another option but I find them, more expensive and they can be rather hot and heavy. Give a skirt or kilt a try, you won't believe how comfortable they are"


What matters is what it is not what we call it. But what it is.

To close with this final thought a quote

Quoting Shakespeare / from Romeo and Juliet
" O, be some other name!
What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet "

[Sinned]

Advertising. That is what will persuade men to wear skirts, whatever they are called. I remember seeing a programme about the advertising industry and how they persuaded women to wear jeans. Originally jeans were heavy-duty, hard-wearing workwear items for men. It showed how the jeans suppliers used advertising to create a new market and this isn't the only example. And skirts for men IS a new market. If only the fashion industry really embraced the concept and put their investment into marketing for men it would pay dividends. We cannot do it - we are too tiny a group and so diverse.

[crfriend]

And if we let the advertising industry do the job it'll be nothing but the "Denim Desert" for us guys. We deserve better.

[Coder]

And if we let the advertising industry do the job it'll be nothing but the "Denim Desert" for us guys. We deserve better.

Not necessarily true - but it wouldn’t surprise me if denim skirts were the biggest sellers - given choices I suspect guys would play it safe. I think Sinned has a good point - it’s advertising which will shape the skirts for men market, if such a thing can be artificially cultivated. Too bad we aren’t in the bad old days where marketing execs would meet in smoke filled rooms and wager bets on who’s company could convince the masses to change their minds - I could see this one as a dare. (joking, sorta)

[crfriend]

Not necessarily true - but it wouldn’t surprise me if denim skirts were the biggest sellers - given choices I suspect guys would play it safe.

No, I suspect it'll stop cold at denim and we'll still be deprived of "fancy" fabrics, including the sorts I happen to enjoy. Such is the way these things seem to work. Give an inch, the guys will take the inch; give an inch and the gals will take the mile.

I don't much enjoy it, but I seem to have a knack [0] for seeing into the future -- and it's not a comfortable situation in the least.



[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6HojLBsnw

[Ozdelights]

I suspect a basic skirt either denim and/or similar would be the most accepted and therefore create demand which suppliers would gladly provide. To help gain acceptance/demand styles presented in the media need to be what is most likely to be worn rather than the boundaries of fashion. Then any other style would be self-expression and be appreciated.

[ScotL]

by ScotL » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:04 pm

Would people on this cafe mind if all skirts for men were called kilts?

Scott, may I direct you back to your original question -- above. I think you've had a clear answer -- many on this cafe would mind.

I get that you are trying to find ways to ease the anxiety many men (in this era) have about wearing garments outside of the ones they've been "told" they should, or are expected to wear. This is admirable, and most of us go about doing just that in various ways.

But as you moved from the original question to the asking "what are we fighting for" and continue to contend that mislabeling a skirt is going to be useful has added confusion and a logic shift into this that is not consistent. I think the topic is ready to be dropped; you are to the point of flogging a dead horse -- it just isn't productive. Ask your new question "what are we fighting for" again and perhaps that may elicit some new ways of viewing fashion freedom that will help everybody get out of the regimented ruts most of us are in. The "how" we might do it is no doubt as varied as skirts themselves! And a few here will dismiss the idea of "fighting for...". Me, I'm not 'fighting' for it -- I'm just doing it -- join me!

I led with the question I figured I knew the answer to but wanted to know, not assume I knew. I wanted to discuss the idea that words matter and didn’t make a new thread because I figured the question led to the discussion I wanted to make. But it seems I’ve ruffled some feathers and beaten some dead horses. That was not my intention.

I’m looking at skirt wearing like how most of the population does; something guys don’t do. I’m new to skirts and not comfortable wearing them publicly. I’d argue my perspective is different from those who can remember a fight that broke up this cafe 20 years ago. I’d hazard a guess that some of the old timers on here can’t see how a guy wouldn’t want to wear a skirt. I’m not trying to be pithy, just honest.

From my perspective, most guys won’t wear skirts, but some will wear a kilt. And I believe guys will react negatively to being told to get over it and try a skirt.

A few guys will try a skirt/kilt if their friend is wearing one but will not react outwardly positively to a man who isn’t famous and is not known to him, if he is wearing a skirt.

The modern kilt is a type of skirt that bears minimal resemblance to the traditional kilt. The word kilt has already been altered to describe men’s skirts (see purple rain kilts and the grill kilt for examples).

You make a good point, I wrongly assumed everyone on here wanted to work (fight) for fashion freedom but some on here are just interested in wearing a skirt. Nothing wrong with that. I am sorry I made that assumption. Though looking back through the thread knowing this makes some of the posts make more sense now.

But I do want to work (fight) for fashion freedom because I believe I will feel more comfortable faster if men wearing skirts are more accepted. I believe this will also open up more skirt options to men that just what is traditionally called a kilt.

I was trying to make the suggestion that calling skirts a name already accepted by men would help men accept them as a man’s garment. I believe this because this is what happened to me.

I feel once more men start wearing skirts/kilts, designers will make boring skirts made out of denim. Cause that’s the way guys do. And they will be popular because as seemingly everyone on here says, the denim skirt is invisible and most guys are not adventurous.

I also believe once men start wearing denim skirts, some will branch out to different types, colors and fabrics. And the makers of skirts will oblige because they won’t have to do much since they already make them for women.

But these are just my observations.

I am truly sorry that I have offended some, brought up bad memories of a past fight, beat a dead horse and seem to have come off as argumentative. I just thought classifying all mens skirts as kilts was a possible idea to help fight for fashion freedom. Mea culpa

[Faldaguy]

Below are some excerpts from Scot's comments in the query about calling all skirts kilts for men by ScotL

I’m looking at skirt wearing like how most of the population does; something guys don’t do. I’m new to skirts and not comfortable wearing them publicly.

But I do want to work (fight) for fashion freedom because I believe I will feel more comfortable faster if men wearing skirts are more accepted. I believe this will also open up more skirt options to men that just what is traditionally called a kilt.

I was trying to make the suggestion that calling skirts a name already accepted by men would help men accept them as a man’s garment. I believe this because this is what happened to me.

Scot, I pulled these comments out because when I combine these with your comments in the Personal Stories section, I think we can see one of the most effective ways for men to get more comfortable wearing skirts is as you found, a couple days doing it! That is vastly easier than changing an industry or even a vocabulary.

During those couple of days that you were out and about in a skirt -- you very quickly found the consequences were; "Nothing" if I remember your words correctly. You spoke of trepidations and worries the days before, but when it came right down to it -- you wore the skirt and found your fears were unfounded! That experience is echoed in SC with regularity, and still most of us enter the world of MIS with those same fears. In a matter of a couple of days, oft in an community away from our home base, men do learn that wearing a skirt is mostly a non-event.

Almost anything that is legal, honest, and non-coercive that allows people to enjoy fashion freedom is good -- sometimes the most expedient way is for a few to start doing it. You got there in fairly short order without having to change the whole advertising fashion industry; without having to re-define language -- i.e -- you made a huge step forward for yourself and others without having to create a change in the common world-view. [Sociologists say it typically takes 17 years to implement any significant shift in social attitudes] By your very action those couple of days I'd venture you did more to change a few folks attitudes toward MIS than years of trying to change language or a gazillion advertising bucks. I like to get a bang for my buck, and I believe just wearing my skirts in public daily does more for the cause of fashion freedom than anything else I can readily do.

Indeed, if we perceive something is acceptable it is easier to adopt it for oneself. As you pointed out from your real world experience, it is acceptable -- you had no consequences. By far, the only non-acceptance is in our own head (& sometimes our SO). Don your skirts and head out a few more times, soon you will be fully at home in them where and when ever-- and spreading the word every hour of the day!

[Myopic Bookworm]

From my perspective, most guys won’t wear skirts, but some will wear a kilt. And I believe guys will react negatively to being told to get over it and try a skirt.

I was trying to make the suggestion that calling skirts a name already accepted by men would help men accept them as a man’s garment. I believe this because this is what happened to me.

I feel once more men start wearing skirts/kilts, designers will make boring skirts made out of denim. Cause that’s the way guys do. And they will be popular because as seemingly everyone on here says, the denim skirt is invisible and most guys are not adventurous.

I also believe once men start wearing denim skirts, some will branch out to different types, colors and fabrics. And the makers of skirts will oblige because they won’t have to do much since they already make them for women.

I tend to agree. I think it's obvious that just using the word "kilt" for all skirts worn by men is unlikely to go far, given the diversity (and the pushback from Scottish purists). But there might be more life in the idea of using the word "kilt" for all skirts designed and marketed specifically for men. As you point out, (a) other people will tentatively refer to a man's skirt as a "kilt", even if it's really a skirt, and (b) the term "kilt" has been deliberately and successfully expanded to include a range of men's skirts which are knee-length and moderately tapered, but not strictly kilts. This makes it easier to encourage men to wear both actual kilts and "skirts-which-everyone-is pretending-are-kilts", and it might then be reasonable to market tapered men's skirts at the full range of lengths as "kilts". There are some styles which seem to be perceived as more gendered, and you might struggle to market a pencil skirt as a "kilt", but eventually we may reach a future point were men can just wear skirts and call them skirts.

[ScotL]

Below are some excerpts from Scot's comments in the query about calling all skirts kilts for men by ScotL

I’m looking at skirt wearing like how most of the population does; something guys don’t do. I’m new to skirts and not comfortable wearing them publicly.

But I do want to work (fight) for fashion freedom because I believe I will feel more comfortable faster if men wearing skirts are more accepted. I believe this will also open up more skirt options to men that just what is traditionally called a kilt.

I was trying to make the suggestion that calling skirts a name already accepted by men would help men accept them as a man’s garment. I believe this because this is what happened to me.

Scot, I pulled these comments out because when I combine these with your comments in the Personal Stories section, I think we can see one of the most effective ways for men to get more comfortable wearing skirts is as you found, a couple days doing it! That is vastly easier than changing an industry or even a vocabulary.

During those couple of days that you were out and about in a skirt -- you very quickly found the consequences were; "Nothing" if I remember your words correctly. You spoke of trepidations and worries the days before, but when it came right down to it -- you wore the skirt and found your fears were unfounded! That experience is echoed in SC with regularity, and still most of us enter the world of MIS with those same fears. In a matter of a couple of days, oft in an community away from our home base, men do learn that wearing a skirt is mostly a non-event.

Almost anything that is legal, honest, and non-coercive that allows people to enjoy fashion freedom is good -- sometimes the most expedient way is for a few to start doing it. You got there in fairly short order without having to change the whole advertising fashion industry; without having to re-define language -- i.e -- you made a huge step forward for yourself and others without having to create a change in the common world-view. [Sociologists say it typically takes 17 years to implement any significant shift in social attitudes] By your very action those couple of days I'd venture you did more to change a few folks attitudes toward MIS than years of trying to change language or a gazillion advertising bucks. I like to get a bang for my buck, and I believe just wearing my skirts in public daily does more for the cause of fashion freedom than anything else I can readily do.

Indeed, if we perceive something is acceptable it is easier to adopt it for oneself. As you pointed out from your real world experience, it is acceptable -- you had no consequences. By far, the only non-acceptance is in our own head (& sometimes our SO). Don your skirts and head out a few more times, soon you will be fully at home in them where and when ever-- and spreading the word every hour of the day!

I’m going to respectfully disagree because you don’t know the other half of me. I have worn women's tights my entire life. First under pants, now with shorts out and about. So adding skirts to the equation for me is a smaller step than for most guys. Most men do not wear womens clothes because they are for women. They do not think otherwise. Simply telling them to “just do it” will not be heard in a positive light.

My biggest point I want to make is I believe (my opinion as one outside looking in) that we need to approach this concept from the perspective of men who have not worn skirts before instead of from the perspective of guys now comfortable wearing skirts publicly.

Otherwise, this cafe is simply preaching to the choir.

[ScotL]

From my perspective, most guys won’t wear skirts, but some will wear a kilt. And I believe guys will react negatively to being told to get over it and try a skirt.

I was trying to make the suggestion that calling skirts a name already accepted by men would help men accept them as a man’s garment. I believe this because this is what happened to me.

I feel once more men start wearing skirts/kilts, designers will make boring skirts made out of denim. Cause that’s the way guys do. And they will be popular because as seemingly everyone on here says, the denim skirt is invisible and most guys are not adventurous.

I also believe once men start wearing denim skirts, some will branch out to different types, colors and fabrics. And the makers of skirts will oblige because they won’t have to do much since they already make them for women.

I tend to agree. I think it's obvious that just using the word "kilt" for all skirts worn by men is unlikely to go far, given the diversity (and the pushback from Scottish purists). But there might be more life in the idea of using the word "kilt" for all skirts designed and marketed specifically for men. As you point out, (a) other people will tentatively refer to a man's skirt as a "kilt", even if it's really a skirt, and (b) the term "kilt" has been deliberately and successfully expanded to include a range of men's skirts which are knee-length and moderately tapered, but not strictly kilts. This makes it easier to encourage men to wear both actual kilts and "skirts-which-everyone-is pretending-are-kilts", and it might then be reasonable to market tapered men's skirts at the full range of lengths as "kilts". There are some styles which seem to be perceived as more gendered, and you might struggle to market a pencil skirt as a "kilt", but eventually we may reach a future point were men can just wear skirts and call them skirts.

Agreed. It will not be as simple as just assigning the word kilt to mens skirts. Though that colloquially has already happened to a degree, if it was that simple, this cafe would not exist.

It will also take forward thinking men to try a skirt on and attempt to wear publicly.

It will also require famous men to keep wearing skirts and not just to big events.

It will also take clothing designers to create a man’s skirt that looks masculine enough for regular men to try them and look similar to how they looked in shorts. Just more comfortable.

[denimini]

I am curious why some are so keen to be told what we are allowed to wear by marketing or that skirts are successfully marketed to men. I have never like men's fashion, even before wearing skirts, I have never like the dull hues, fabrics or shapes so I doubt whether I will be excited about a skirt marketed for men. I am happy with my mini skirts, of greater variety than my username and avatar suggests, happy calling them mini skirts and now quite happy being a standout without the outlay of an expensive car.

[ScotL]

I am curious why some are so keen to be told what we are allowed to wear by marketing or that skirts are successfully marketed to men. I have never like men's fashion, even before wearing skirts, I have never like the dull hues, fabrics or shapes so I doubt whether I will be excited about a skirt marketed for men. I am happy with my mini skirts, of greater variety than my username and avatar suggests, happy calling them mini skirts and now quite happy being a standout without the outlay of an expensive car.

I’m really happy for you. You are comfortable in your own skin.

But my question is, do you see your attitude as unique or one held by most men?

[denimini]

Not unique to myself although I would say that a very small minority would think that way. I am more interested in freedom to dress as one pleases and accepting others in doing so. If a particular skirt becomes acceptable to the majority of men, then there will be a minority who do not like that style. Let us be the unique individuals that we are.

[ScotL]

Not unique to myself although I would say that a very small minority would think that way. I am more interested in freedom to dress as one pleases and accepting others in doing so. If a particular skirt becomes acceptable to the majority of men, then there will be a minority who do not like that style. Let us be the unique individuals that we are.

I am little confused. Do you mean you’re happy that most men don’t wear skirts cause that means you’re the unique one?

I know if skirts become normalized for men, unique people will become even more unique. To the eclectic, there is no limits to expression of one’s style