Progress - maybe lack of it

[ScotL]

Oh - also - footwear. Combat boots, I think, are perfect with skirts, as are chucks. But try different shoe types to see if they work better, perhaps sandals.

I’m not a fan of boots but when wearing a skirt they are a confidence booster. Gives the look a masculine look just like it does for women who wear a skirt and boots.

[Faldaguy]

by ScotL » Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:36 pm

Barleymower wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:02 pm
ScotL wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:12 am

Why do you say your efforts failed? ...uninterested indifference is a win to me. If the “normos” don’t react then good. Step in the right direction.


failed because....my courage often fails me. I can't face the mens toilets. Certain other places are hard to bear: the school playground for example.


I’d also say the fact you are out there wearing a skirt openly is more than courageous. I ...was pretty nervous. I think it’s all baby steps getting up the courage until you’re one of the “old timers” on here who feel 100% comfortable in a skirt in public.

Don’t sell yourself short. We are our own worst critic.... but I think what you’ve already done is awesome

We are our own worst critics --- UNDERLINE that, make it a poster on your closet, whatever -- that is the elephant in the room. Go forth with confidence and damn the critics, whoever they are! Have fun, and do your own thing. It REALLY does get easy after the first few rounds in public.

[rode_kater]

One of the purposes of clothing is present yourself in a certain way. To emphasise the things about your body you want to emphasise and to diminish the things you want to distract from. This is one of the reasons that dresses with defined waists look a bit weird on men: they're emphasising a narrow waist which doesn't exist.

Most men's clothing (especially t-shirts) are trying to emphasise a rectangle shape, which is why I think most skirts I see here are relatively straight, or slight A-line. The waist is not ever emphasised (in fact, you probably want to hide it).

So, a skirt designed for men is likely to have a different structure designed to work people people where to waist-to-hip ratio is almost 1. In fact, the garment industry must already have a lot of experience here, there same problem exists in jeans. It's just a matter of applying it to a new product.

Now of course, everyone can choose themselves how they want to appear, but I don't think ballroom gowns are ever likely to be a thing for men. Or empire waists for that matter.

Everyone needs to figure out which style works for them. My tactic of occasionally going down to the second-hand shop and just trying stuff has narrowed things down for me, but it's clear that what I'm really looking for doesn't exist off the shelf. Some things come close though... Mostly I just want the dresses with the waistline dropped 10cm or so.

[Barleymower]

Thanks everyone. It's a battle fought on many fronts:
- not designed to mens tastes
- not designed to.mens shapes
- bigotry
- social.conditioning
- self criticism
- femininity / masculinity

Here is an uplifting article I found:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2022/0 ... skirt.html

Quote:
"Two-legged torture devices"
"So, why not feel comfortable as we march toward oblivion?"

[crfriend]

One of the purposes of clothing is present yourself in a certain way. To emphasise the things about your body you want to emphasise and to diminish the things you want to distract from. This is one of the reasons that dresses with defined waists look a bit weird on men: they're emphasising a narrow waist which doesn't exist.

That's not entirely true. Healthy men in decent shape -- not "ripped", but just healthy -- do, indeed have waists, they're just not the "nipped" waists that healthy women have; add the wider hips for the woman (this is for the evolutionary function of childbirth and represents the limiter as to our brain size as adults), and the difference between waist and hips is enormous as compared to men. Men exhibit such features, but to a lesser degree. Of course this is assuming "normal" healthy proportions.

Most men's clothing (especially t-shirts) are trying to emphasise a rectangle shape, which is why I think most skirts I see here are relatively straight, or slight A-line. The waist is not ever emphasised (in fact, you probably want to hide it).

If you want to hide it, you're probably not in decent shape (save for that "round is a shape"). I, for instance, have a 35" waist and 40" hips. This is not the sometimes double-digit difference that women exhibit, but it's there nonetheless. And I capitalise on it.

[lithaborn]

As far as I am concerned a kilt equals a Scotsman and as I am English I would never wear one. I also view them as too heavy to be truly comfortable.

Respect your opinion but I have to say the only time I've found kilts uncomfortable in the slightest is when I've worn a wooly one in very hot weather.

Also an added bonus, what you've got is basically 4 metres of pleated wool on your butt. There's no such thing as an uncomfortable seat when you're wearing a kilt. Built-in cushion!

[mishawakaskirt]

Thanks everyone. It's a battle fought on many fronts:
- not designed to mens tastes
- not designed to.mens shapes
- bigotry
- social.conditioning
- self criticism
- femininity / masculinity

Here is an uplifting article I found:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2022/0 ... skirt.html

Quote:
"Two-legged torture devices"
"So, why not feel comfortable as we march toward oblivion?"

I read the slate.com article.

I've never understood or really adhered to fashion.

Fashion effectively someone telling you what to wear because it's new and exciting. It's more like "My business sells clothing, need to sell clothes to make money, I need to tell the populus that their perfectly fine clothing is so passe and old and outdated. You need something fresh and new. Oh look I just happen to have what you need."
I thought the writer described it well calling fashion a Sisyphean push.

What ever is new now will be outdated in several months if not by next year. I think of the Dr Seuss starbellies.
Stars were cool if you had one you were better.
Once everybody had a star then it was cool to not have a star. At one point in the cartoon animation the the sneetches are running around to get the stars either added or removed from their bellies not knowing which was better.

sneetches.jpg

I question anyone telling me I should wear jeans that look like they went through a wood chipper, wear enormous shoes that look like footballs. Or 2000 dollar skirts, or 200 dollar jeans or shoes.
Are they better clothes because I paid more for them? Do they make me a better person?

Just paying for a label basically.

Clothing is a tool to cover my body in modesty, protect it from the elements, abrasion and injury.
I figure I might as well be comfortable as I do it.

Realistically none of us would be here if we adhered to what's considered fashion. After all skirts for men are not in fashion. And they are barely in fashion in women's circles.

I buy clothes that are comfortable and practical. If I want to stand out in a crowd I will wear high visibility yellow. Not fancy jeans or shirts.

If blue is in and everyone is wearing it, and my shirt is green, oh well. I'm not going to get rid of my perfectly fine green shirt to get a blue one.

So the fashion promoters can just go broke.
And the fashion police can just keep shaking their heads at me.
I'm completely comfortable in my hodgepodge mix of men's and women's second hand clothes.

[Myopic Bookworm]

As far as I am concerned a kilt equals a Scotsman and as I am English I would never wear one. I also view them as too heavy to be truly comfortable.

I am English and have been wearing a kilt since 1987, starting with the tartan that is (loosely) attached to my surname, then branching out into a plain Donegal tweed, corduroy and denim (both made in Wales), an American utility kilt, and a range of appealing tartans, some of which are specifically of lightweight material. As a loyal subject of the Queen of Scotland, I feel entitled to wear one.

My Scottish father-in-law never wears one, though. I recently discovered that this is not because he is a Lowlander, but mainly because as a young man he was obliged by his companion to wear one on a very long hike through the Highlands, found it poor protection against the gorse and thistles (and possibly the weather and the midges), and swore off them ever after.

[Barleymower]

I've never understood or really adhered to fashion.

I mostly agree. The fashion industry is there to change clothes from something we need into a market to be profited from.
It is the fashion industry that is our biggest advocate currently. Tapping the untapped market of men's clothes. The fashion houses are plugging mens skirts now in the gender fluid movement. The object being to get 50% of the population spending more on clothes. Hooray, we could see men in skirts being normalised. All thanks to the industry, celebs and a few brave souls.

[Faldaguy]

by mishawakaskirt » Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:57 am
So the fashion promoters can just go broke.
And the fashion police can just keep shaking their heads at me.
I'm completely comfortable in my hodgepodge mix of men's and women's second hand clothes.

HEAR HEAR!!

by Barleymower » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:50 pm
mostly agree. The fashion industry is there to change clothes from something we need into a market to be profited from.
It is the fashion industry that is our biggest advocate currently. Tapping the untapped market of men's clothes. The fashion houses are plugging mens skirts now in the gender fluid movement. The object being to get 50% of the population spending more on clothes. Hooray, we could see men in skirts being normalised. All thanks to the industry, celebs and a few brave souls.

Though I would be delighted to see more MIS, I want it to derive from motivations and values that have more intrinsic worth than "following fashion, or wearing the latest style" -- that is still falling into the rut of regimentation that keeps men in pants -- being sheeple.

[mishawakaskirt]

I've never understood or really adhered to fashion.

I mostly agree. The fashion industry is there to change clothes from something we need into a market to be profited from.
It is the fashion industry that is our biggest advocate currently. Tapping the untapped market of men's clothes. The fashion houses are plugging mens skirts now in the gender fluid movement. The object being to get 50% of the population spending more on clothes. Hooray, we could see men in skirts being normalised. All thanks to the industry, celebs and a few brave souls.

I don't think that men's fashion or men's skirts will ever be as lucrative as currently women's fashion or clothing is.

Mentally men and women are at a different place.

Men don't dress for the same reasons that women dress.
Generally men shop for clothes out of necessity and practicality.
Shoes, I own about a dozen pairs of shoes.
Including, winter boots, work boots, dress shoes, sandals for summer, and tennis shoes. I don't worry about matching them with any of my clothes. Just that I have appropriate foot coverings for all kinds of weather conditions or activities that I will be participating in. Trousers are pretty much the same way.

What man shops for cute clothes?
I have heard my wife say that when returning from the store with some new clothes. Oh that outfit was so cute, I decided to get it.

The best difference in men and women and clothing I can think of is at the wedding.

At least in the US. Typically most women buy the wedding dress. While the groom and groomsmen men get rental tuxedos. Why the difference? Why not rental wedding dresses too?

Women will wear something painfully tight or uncomfortable, something delicate, towering high heels, shape wear, make-up, or extremely expensive in the name of fashion and beauty

Guys kinda be like
I'm here, I'm not naked, I wore a clean t shirt, what more do you want?

MIS might be a slight exception.
I have way more skirts than I care to admit. Way more than I really need. A few of them I got because I liked the color or style. They weren't really bought out of necessity, they still meet my, they must be comfortable practical requirements.
(In part I binge bought skirts when they appeared to be plentiful, because they still seem to be in decline) assuming My waist size does not change drastically. I believe I have a life time supply of skirts to last me the rest of my life.
I really hope MIS becomes accepted, I have a ready made wardrobe of skirts and over night could go to being almost full time skirt wearer like alot of you men.

I know alot of you guys will wear things I won't touch. And love free styling to the max.
So yea, some MIS have gotten bitten by the fashion bug.

[rivegauche]

I've never understood or really adhered to fashion.

I mostly agree. The fashion industry is there to change clothes from something we need into a market to be profited from.
It is the fashion industry that is our biggest advocate currently. Tapping the untapped market of men's clothes. The fashion houses are plugging mens skirts now in the gender fluid movement. The object being to get 50% of the population spending more on clothes. Hooray, we could see men in skirts being normalised. All thanks to the industry, celebs and a few brave souls.

OK maybe I am not typical, but my shopping for male clothes is strongly focussed. I have lots of male clothes though not as many as in my skirt/dress wardrobe. Ditto shoes. I was first professionally styled in a women's presentation and then realised I should really do this for the gender presentation I use more frequently, so I got male styling too. Never looked back. I really enjoy clothes and some of my male clothes are beautiful. I have a male jacket that cost £600 and it gets a LOT of compliments.

I spend a fortune on clothes and probably wouldn't spend much more if all clothes were marketed to me. I do not recognise any limits imposed on shops by society. Fortunately the shops feel the same way and are as happy to sell dresses to a man as to a woman - to the extent of encouraging a man who is dressed as a man to use the fitting rooms.

Even with this attitude though, I frequently find myself changing from a very smart skirt/dress into less smart male clothes to go out or for work.

I am probably not typical and I think the summary of male attitudes to clothes is probably accurate for a lot of the population. I don't feel that the majority men would put any more effort into their appearance in a skirt or dress than they would in trousers.


I don't think that men's fashion or men's skirts will ever be as lucrative as currently women's fashion or clothing is.

Mentally men and women are at a different place.

Men don't dress for the same reasons that women dress.
Generally men shop for clothes out of necessity and practicality.
Shoes, I own about a dozen pairs of shoes.
Including, winter boots, work boots, dress shoes, sandals for summer, and tennis shoes. I don't worry about matching them with any of my clothes. Just that I have appropriate foot coverings for all kinds of weather conditions or activities that I will be participating in. Trousers are pretty much the same way.

What man shops for cute clothes?
I have heard my wife say that when returning from the store with some new clothes. Oh that outfit was so cute, I decided to get it.

The best difference in men and women and clothing I can think of is at the wedding.

At least in the US. Typically most women buy the wedding dress. While the groom and groomsmen men get rental tuxedos. Why the difference? Why not rental wedding dresses too?

Women will wear something painfully tight or uncomfortable, something delicate, towering high heels, shape wear, make-up, or extremely expensive in the name of fashion and beauty

Guys kinda be like
I'm here, I'm not naked, I wore a clean t shirt, what more do you want?

MIS might be a slight exception.
I have way more skirts than I care to admit. Way more than I really need. A few of them I got because I liked the color or style. They weren't really bought out of necessity, they still meet my, they must be comfortable practical requirements.
(In part I binge bought skirts when they appeared to be plentiful, because they still seem to be in decline) assuming My waist size does not change drastically. I believe I have a life time supply of skirts to last me the rest of my life.
I really hope MIS becomes accepted, I have a ready made wardrobe of skirts and over night could go to being almost full time skirt wearer like alot of you men.

I know alot of you guys will wear things I won't touch. And love free styling to the max.
So yea, some MIS have gotten bitten by the fashion bug.

[jamodu]

Rather than maligning Skirt wearing Men as ‘Crossdressers’ I suggest that a more palatable attribute would be ‘gender non-conformity’ on their choice of alternative clothes.

It wasn’t that long ago when professional Football (Soccer) players were Wolf-Whistled by spectators for wearing Tights on the pitch. Now, folk don’t flinch when most Football players wear Tights as it’s become so commonplace - even among amateur players. The Track Suit bottoms of the past seem to have almost vanished.

There’s no shortage of such Men’s Sports Tights to buy - but if anyone suggested that they could also similarly wear Sheer or Opaque Tights under their Shorts there would be a backlash by Women.

Ironically, the movement tracking vests that all professional players wear on the pitch look like they’re wearing Bra’s - but ironically no one else makes that connection.

I looked on M&S today. A Women’s pair of Leggings was £9.50 - among numerous other such Leggings. By comparison, there was a single pair of Men’s Leggings (for Sport) costing £19.50. Visually, there was little to distinguish them - but if the suggestion was made that Men wear Women’s Leggings instead there would be a negative response by Women - even though they look the same.

Even so, I believe that Denim Skirts offer the kind of garment that looks as though its appropriate for Men. It’s a practical item to wear, with plenty of pockets (like a pair of Jeans). With any T-Shirt and Trainers, for example, its a very casual, non-feminine look. If it’s chilly, add a stealthy-looking pair of Nude coloured Sheer Tights.

[crfriend]

Rather than maligning Skirt wearing Men as ‘Crossdressers’ I suggest that a more palatable attribute would be ‘gender non-conformity’ on their choice of alternative clothes.

That's even worse than the cross-dresser slur. Start dragging gender and sex into it and you're guaranteed to drive regular blokes away in droves.

Why does there have to be something wrong with my gender-identity for me to wear a skirt? It doesn't bother men in all the other places where skirt-like garments are worn?

[STEVIE]

There’s no shortage of such Men’s Sports Tights to buy - but if anyone suggested that they could also similarly wear Sheer or Opaque Tights under their Shorts there would be a backlash by Women.
Men wear Women’s Leggings instead there would be a negative response by Women - even though they look the same.

Not in my experience Jamodu, most of the women that I know would be in favour or really not bothered.
Other guys could be a more scathing and judgemental though.
Anyway, don't ask, don't tell and no one gets agitated.
Steve.