Progress - maybe lack of it

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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crfriend
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by crfriend »

Barleymower wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:56 pmLife has taken an unexpected turn. I've been affected by this experience and now I have fallen out with my wife.
Nevertheless I am still in a skirt.
Oh, Hell. I hope the two incidents were not related.

Best wishes for the future.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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crfriend wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:16 pm Oh, Hell. I hope the two incidents were not related.

Best wishes for the future.
Thanks for replying.
This is not a transgender group and not the place to swap transgender stories so I'll keep it brief.
I'm not in a skirt because of some march against the injustices (although there should be and I would march). Essentially I have no choice. Don't get me wrong it's been the greatest thing ever to do this.
I saw myself as a woman in faceapp and I saw what could have been. It affected me. I dwelled on it for few weeks, stressing me out.
Eventually I thought I'm going to tell all and the let the cards fall where they fall, so to speak. Fool that I am.
Understandably it didn't go down well and I now have platonic relationship for the foreseeable future.
I'm ashamed to say that having unburdened myself the need to transition has vanished. What an idiot.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Faldaguy »

I hope the dissonance you and others near are feeling will resolve. Others here have found it is useful to focus on maintaining the support and habits you have always engaged in, in your relationships. If you can convey that in no way have you fundamentally changed -- no more so than a woman wearing a dress one day, pants the next; short hair, long hair -- delicate fluff the evening out and butch over the top at the horse show....that fashion, and appearance are just another delightful way of being/expressing life and feelings -- they are not altering your care, love, sexual practices, or body parts -- some of that dissonance from the unfamiliar may wash down the river of time and experience of finding you are still you. Good luck.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Faldaguy wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:20 am If you can convey that in no way have you fundamentally changed -- no more so than a woman wearing a dress one day, pants the next; short hair, long hair -- delicate fluff the evening out and butch over the top at the horse show....that fashion, and appearance are just another delightful way of being/expressing life and feelings -- they are not altering your care, love, sexual practices, or body parts -- some of that dissonance from the unfamiliar may wash down the river of time and experience of finding you are still you. Good luck.
I liken it to fairness and recently read an article which illustrated this somewhat:

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... 5c9b918ef8

In it she shows a gamut of looks - looks only achievable because society allows/encourages women to wear different fashions - and because of this companies tailor options for women's form. Nothing is off limits - she even talks about borrowing "boys" clothes.

Perhaps this might resonate:
One of the most stylish men in my universe is Study Magazine editor Christopher Niquet, a tidy Frenchman so immaculately put together that Idea Books is releasing a fanzine dedicated to him during Paris Fashion Week titled simply “CN”. His take on sartorial semaphore is a sentiment I agree with: “Dressing well is very different from having personal style. I would always prefer someone with a strong personal style I may not admire than someone who replicates something I like.”

Personal style is difficult to talk about because explaining it would mean letting you, and myself, know the rabbit was delicately bunched in the bottom of the hat all along. What I do know is that my style is not simply limited to what I put on, but rather an amalgamation of everything I have an affinity for.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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I love the last sentence.

Coder, what is it you are using to squash the paywalls?
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Faldaguy wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:06 am I love the last sentence.

Coder, what is it you are using to squash the paywalls?
12ft.io. I feel a little bit guilty linking to articles directly with it, but I get tired of linking to articles only to see people complain about not being able to view articles because of a paywall. Some sites block it, so I figure, the developers of those news sites must know about it by now, and if they wanted to, would put in place methods to block it. A lot of "paywalls" are just overlays that can be removed with a bit of live html editing, or simply by changing the browser UA to a google bot, or even doing a google search and clicking an AMP link.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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:eh:
by Coder » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:10 pm
"removed with a bit of live html editing, or simply by changing the browser UA to a google bot, or even doing a google search and clicking an AMP link."
I hope you know that sentence may as well be in Liki, Sarcee, or Chemehuevi for a good many of us! I should have asked -- can I employ it to get past walls I find, and how do I do so -- in pedestrian English please! :eh: (Remember, pedestrian go slow, one step at a time!)
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:30 pm
crfriend wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:16 pm Oh, Hell. I hope the two incidents were not related.

Best wishes for the future.
Thanks for replying.
This is not a transgender group and not the place to swap transgender stories so I'll keep it brief.
I'm not in a skirt because of some march against the injustices (although there should be and I would march). Essentially I have no choice. Don't get me wrong it's been the greatest thing ever to do this.
I saw myself as a woman in faceapp and I saw what could have been. It affected me. I dwelled on it for few weeks, stressing me out.
Eventually I thought I'm going to tell all and the let the cards fall where they fall, so to speak. Fool that I am.
Understandably it didn't go down well and I now have platonic relationship for the foreseeable future.
I'm ashamed to say that having unburdened myself the need to transition has vanished. What an idiot.
I’m sorry to hear of your struggles. You may call yourself an idiot but know you are not. Ask yourself what you would foresee in the future if you had not opened up with your feelings to her. Do you think it would’ve just gone away? Like some fad or phase? I doubt it.

People react poorly to change. Almost regardless of if the change is good or bad. We are creatures of habit. Your SO is likely exhibiting the same discord anyone would hearing of a major change. I’m sure your mind is also a flutter thinking about this change.

The difference is you’ve been brooding over this change for so long, you’ve gotten used to it. Although she knows of your affinity for skirt wearing, she didn’t know the extent of it and/or want to deal with it.

Now suddenly, likely when she wasn’t expecting it, a bombshell goes off. Not saying that was the wrong thing to do. But she will need time and love. She needs to know this won’t get in the way of your feelings for her. That you still have the same affinity for her and are still the same person she married (you’re married correct?).

Who knows what the future brings but I know discussion, love and time can heal all wounds. In your mind, ask yourself how you would react if she gave you a similar bombshell. I can’t imagine many being somewhat indifferent to something to go 180 and be glowingly positive about it in a flash of a second.

Good luck.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Thanks everyone for the understanding and support. I may be doing this for different reasons but I think the outcome will be the same. A man in a skirt.
After the weekend I realise I have periods of being strongly masculine, periods of strongly feminine. These times, although now filled with gorgeous skirts are enormously stressful due to the dysphoria. I get some relief with the clothes. I think that with coupled with the aftermath of the transition means I will remain as I am.
I need to give my wife a time to recover and then rebuild, I hope to a better place.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:54 pmAfter the weekend I realise I have periods of being strongly masculine, periods of strongly feminine.
There, I think you'll find a start, and then the real hill-climb will come as you reconcile both of those into a single unit that will be you. We've lived with this masculine/feminine dichotomy for far too long, and it's starting to tell on us. Every last one of us -- at least the healthy ones -- have a mix of the two in our systems, and we really should be at peace with that. I strongly wonder how much of this modern angst is self-inflicted and how much of it is inflicted upon us by our warped society.
I need to give my wife a time to recover and then rebuild, I hope to a better place.
If you get through this in one piece and as a family unit everybody will be better off.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Hi Barleymower
Many years ago, I told my wife that "I see no advantage in being a man".
That one statement has remained in her mind for 30 years and has coloured our relationship ever since.
Our children, unlike yours are adults and independent too.
We now have a "platonic" relationship, and it works rather better than I expected. Not ideal but the ongoing conflict has gone and that is a boon in itself.
I rather feel that you and your wife have a better prognosis in that you have kept communications open and that really is the key.
On the masculine/feminine question, I will pick up from Carl.
crfriend wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:25 pm Every last one of us -- at least the healthy ones -- have a mix of the two in our systems, and we really should be at peace with that. I strongly wonder how much of this modern angst is self-inflicted and how much of it is inflicted upon us by our warped society.
I have had that "modern" angst imposed on me for some sixty years or so. I have literally always been aware of the "mix" since I was old enough to be aware of anything but eating and pooping. I never felt that I wished to be a girl but girly things like skirts and dresses were a whole different matter, in fact a pleasure. That dichotomy took 50 or so years to be eradicated and become at one with myself could have so easily been avoided.
I still hope that by the time our current crop of 8-10 year olds grow up clothes just will not matter at all.
Steve
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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crfriend wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:25 pm
We've lived with this masculine/feminine dichotomy for far too long, and it's starting to tell on us. Every last one of us -- at least the healthy ones -- have a mix of the two in our systems, and we really should be at peace with that. I strongly wonder how much of this modern angst is self-inflicted and how much of it is inflicted upon us by our warped society.
This is spot on. We have lived not only in a world where the masculine/feminine dichotomy was a dichotomy but also where masculine qualities were the only celebrated ones as powerful and successful.

I don’t think we can separate the damage societal norms and self loathing have on us as they are related. Societal norms provide expectations that make an individual feel bad if not met. Both need to change.

The world will be better when we acknowledge that everyone has qualities that traditionally were associated with each gender. And that’s not just ok, that’s the way it should be.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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STEVIE wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:47 am Hi Barleymower
Many years ago, I told my wife that "I see no advantage in being a man".
That one statement has remained in her mind for 30 years and has coloured our relationship ever since.
...and

I still hope that by the time our current crop of 8-10 year olds grow up clothes just will not matter at all.
Steve
crfriend wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:25 pm Every last one of us -- at least the healthy ones -- have a mix of the two in our systems, and we really should be at peace with that. I strongly wonder how much of this modern angst is self-inflicted and how much of it is inflicted upon us by our warped society.
Hi Stevie and Carl,
My kids are firmly in the teens group now so I get to hear about how life in a UK secondary school. My son is autistic and suffers at the hands of the school road men. My non-binary daughter finds a proportion of the girls, chavs to be very mean. The roadmen in her class taunt her from every corner,
- shouting f*ggot out of the bus window
- cat calling in corridors
- calling her gay
- calling her Emo
- there's only one gender etc
As you can see prejudice is alive and well. Her boyfriend would never wear a skirt though. Based on her experiences I really don't think clothing freedom is around the corner.

I spoke ro my wife about transitioning last week and it can't be unsaid. I've said that I'm still the same person I ever was with a few extra facets. She says she needs to get over what was said, to reset.
Once said out loud it lost its grip on me. I saw the reality of what I was contemplating. My male patten balding is extensive, my head is effectively one big scar. Nothing will grow there again. Drug and surgery will are irreversible, testosterone levels would be lower than woman's. Muscle mass is lost, bones weaken. Its not a healthy thing. What was I thinking!

I agree with you Carl, we have a mix of both in our system. Maybe my issue is quite simple. At the crucial two year point in my life I did not have a male roll model and I took my roll from the people around me; women. It would explain a lot.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:42 pm I've said that I'm still the same person I ever was with a few extra facets.
Once said out loud it lost its grip on me. I saw the reality of what I was contemplating. ... What was I thinking!

Yes, you are still the same person, so you have to find a way of living as that person, in the life-context that you as that person have grown into over many years. It is unfortunate that the "non-binary" label is associated mainly with androgynous people under the age of 25, or people somewhere on the gay-drag spectrum, and doesn't seem to sit comfortably in the popular imagination with older people who in some respect just don't conform to the gender stereotype. People will accept (or even expect) way-out fashions from young people, but come over all ageist if any older people (especially older men) give it a go. (Does your wife accept that your child is non-binary?)

And I can't avoid the judgementalism either. I have spent a little bit of time on Pinterest, and I see some pictures of older men in skirts pushing the gender boundary way further than I would, and to be quite honest I just think: Nope, not going there. (At least, not while anyone else is looking.)

It seems that your experience with FaceApp is by no means unique:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/0 ... users.html

I'm not sure that I would dare try it. And remember, it is not "what could have been": it's a fantasy which even months of hormones, surgery, and amazing cosmetics would not bring to reality. A friend's trans daughter has been fundraising for facial feminization surgery, and it is not a straightforward thing. In a way, I feel sad that she could not settle for identifying as non-binary, but that's not the kind of decision you can make for someone else. I have a similar feeling about another friend's daughter who is gay and "they": I hope she/they can have the courage and freedom to wear trousers, like football, and have a girlfriend without stepping into the fraught world of sex reassignment.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 8:42 pmI spoke ro my wife about transitioning last week and it can't be unsaid. I've said that I'm still the same person I ever was with a few extra facets. She says she needs to get over what was said, to reset.
Well, once the words leave they cannot be called back. Sad, but true.

Do not for an instant believe the claptrap that the radical "feminists" are pushing -- it's toxic through and through. You're likely grappling with the dichotomy of what you feel and the pop-sci notion of what constitutes what it means to be a man. Those of the species who have an X and a Y chromosome have the same emotional capacity of those who have an X and an X. Full stop. To deny that basic fact is to deny human nature -- a folly.

Men need to learn to embrace their emotions, and to learn to use them creatively. This means the entire range. We are capable of vastly more than lust and rage, and we deny the other emotions at out peril.
I agree with you Carl, we have a mix of both in our system. Maybe my issue is quite simple. At the crucial two year point in my life I did not have a male roll model and I took my roll from the people around me; women. It would explain a lot.
Note that in my life journey, I had to reject -- outright -- the Stoic constitution of two generations of men. I had to toss aside both my father's stoicism and also his father's. It wasn't easy, but it proved to be the right path as I have written about before. I am not sorry I did, although it upset both of my main role models more than a little bit.

Humans need emotion to properly live; this includes both boys and girls, and men and women. I want to find the idiot that penned the lyric of "big boys don't cry" and hurt her. Badly. Because it needs doing (although I suspect it's too late now). It's condemned men to a Hell that women cannot comprehend, and likely don't want to which exacerbates the problem.

One does not need to "transition" to feel compassion, joy, giddiness, true love, sadness, or melancholy. One merely needs to be human. We as a species need to learn this.

Yes, it's a complex world. Embrace it with all you've got!
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
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