Progress - maybe lack of it

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Barleymower
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Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Barleymower »

I'm really quite new to this forum, and thankful for it. Hi Everyone.
I have posted already but not really introduced myself. I'm 56, married, father of three, highways engineer, my name is Adrian. I don't believe in the gender binary. If I did then I would say that men should not wear skirts, they are for women.

So for whatever reason I put on a skirt at Easter and I have been wearing one nearly full time ever since. My wife was/is struggling with the concept. She had a man's man now she has a man's man in a skirt.

I've been away with our kids in Devon for a week and she is still working up in Reading. I was told that she was going to have a girls meet up on Wednesday, which went ahead. Turns out as I expected, the ladies discussed the subject of me and the sudden wearing of skirts. Here is what they said:
L (next door neighbour); first time she saw me she said, are you going to dress up like bow peep next? I was fairly hacked off by that. Since then she has softened and said to F my wife: Its a chance for you to grow as people. That said she wants to know where it's going next. Does he wear girls knickers too? a bra?
J and A (two lesbians cohabitating). J is a radical feminist and also wanted to know if this a fetish and wanted to know where this is going next? pants? bras? men?
A, her partner is more intellectual. She said each to there own, its fine.
N is a massive fan she thinks it is really great and loves my blue skirt. Her husband is also fully supported but when asked will not be wearing a skirt (of course not!).
My wife F, says she needs to get over herself. I asked if she can accept it? she said, yes around the house but suffers with stares on the street. She does not know if she can accept it. She's trying.

Mostly these attitudes really riles me. It's just a skirt!
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crfriend
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pmMostly these attitudes really riles me. It's just a skirt!
Yes, it's "just a skirt". However, that simple piece of fabric fastened around your waist has come to "mean" vastly more. Is that silly? Of course it is, but it is what it is and needs to be danced around.

I was fortunate in 2002 when I first exposed my late ex- to my ideas. She at first wondered, "What the Heck?", pondered further, and -- being intellectual at the time -- came to the conclusion that nothing much had fundamentally changed. As she humorously put it later that day, "Well, there's 15 seconds of my life I'm never getting back!" referring to the amount of time it took her to make up her mind on the way to get the mail at the foot of the driveway one afternoon. She got a bit more than she bargained for that afternoon, though, because it did cut deeper and caused me to actually think about how I dressed -- and that caused her much joy indeed, because before that I could not have cared less, and it showed. The net result was a calmer, more focused, and gentler partner who all of a sudden "blossomed" (her word) after the fact.

Life was good before she passed.
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Barleymower
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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crfriend wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:05 am Life was good before she passed.
Thanks for the reply crfriend. The thought of losing her is heartbreaking, I can't imagine F not being there.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm I'm 56, married, father of three, highways engineer, my name is Adrian. I don't believe in the gender binary. If I did then I would say that men should not wear skirts, they are for women.
I think that's a non sequitur. To demonstrate that, let's contemplate the converse of that statement and see if it makes sense:


I don't believe in the gender binary. If I did then I would say that women should not wear trousers, they are for men.


You can believe in the gender binary (as I do) and still believe that women should be able to wear trousers and men should be able to wear skirts.
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crfriend
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by crfriend »

No, what we have here is a confusion that inanimate things (e.g. clothing) can have a gender that somehow "disagrees" with the gender of a human being.

The reason it sounds like a non-sequitur is that it's a dodge to get around the misconception of inanimate objects having gender. I regard it as axiomatic that inanimate, unthinking objects merely exist and do not have the sentience required to have anything like "gender". Romance languages notwithstanding.

Face it, skirts are no more gendered than, say, a hammer or a screwdriver. Or a rock. Lemmings, being mammals, may have some notion of it, but nobody's done the work required to find out.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Stu »

In terms of grammar, objects do have a gender - it's called "neuter" - so grammatically speaking, gender isn't a binary but a triadic.

However, I subscribe to the view that humans are biologically either male or female in terms of their sex. The only people who can claim an in-between status are intersex people, or some who are electively intersex because they have undergone some degree of medical transitioning.

In terms of gender - it depends on what you mean. When it is aligned to or synonymous with sex, then it is a binary: male and female. When it relates to disposition, then it is a gradation between the extremes of hyper-masculinity and hyper-femininity, with androgyny sitting somewhere at the centre. Items of clothing can also take on gender in this respect: there can be masculine and feminine garments, but these are almost entirely cultural constructs and, as such, we are at liberty to move the goalposts, as we did some time ago with women wearing trousers - and as I would like to see when it comes to men wearing skirts

I am afraid I am a bit isolated on here in that I don't subscribe to the notion that some people are "non-binary" whereby they reject both male and female titles and attributions. Male and female are the two sexes and people are either one or the other (and, in rare cases, moving between one to the other). A person's personal demeanour or preferences does not alter that reality however much they might wish it. Thus, a man with a full beard but who is wearing overtly feminine garb and cosmetics is still a man. I will refer to him with masculine pronouns unless and until he shaves off the beard and calls himself Suzie, at which point I will gladly refer to this individual as "she" and "her", and open doors for "her" and maybe buy her flowers on her birthday. I will not apply the pronouns "they" or "them" to a single entity.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Stu wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:28 pmIn terms of grammar, objects do have a gender - it's called "neuter" - so grammatically speaking, gender isn't a binary but a triadic.
We're in agreement on this as a matter of grammar, and largely in agreement on human notions of sex and gender.

German, and its children (English being amongst them), has a neuter, as I think does Russian (but it's been a very, very long time since I've dabbled in that tongue). Interestingly, French doesn't (and I don't think that Spanish or Portugese do either) and everything is either "masculine" of "feminine" -- leading to the odd notion of a tomcat being "feminine". Does Gaelic have the notion of "neuter"? It'd be interesting to see a breakout of how many languages do.

I was speaking to the notions of animation and sentience. Only sentient living things can create such a notion as "gender", or have reason to; thus, inanimate non-sentient objects are just that -- objects. In other words, good for everybody, not just one sex/"gender". Thus, the fact that in many practical senses men are denied the option of skirts (an inanimate non-sentient object) but women get the full range becomes particularly galling.

Face it, haters: It's a fashion statement.
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Barleymower
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Barleymower »

Thanks for the welcome.
I feel I need to further explain what I have said which sem to have been lost in translation.
I said "I don't believe in the gender binary. If I did then I would say that men should not wear skirts, they are for women."

When I say I don't believe in the gender binary. I don't believe that gender is a on/off switch. Biological sex is on/off, gender is not. It's my contention that society cannot accept men in skirts at the moment. It does not not compute. Most of the looks I get are looks of confusion. There's no gay vibe about me and yet I'm in a woman's skirt. WTF? I'm existing outside of all accepted definitions. Not a normal man in trousers, not gay, not trans. Just a man in a skirt.
In my case I am a heterosexual male with a strong feminine side. I don't need definitions like gender, or pronouns none of them apply.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Sinned »

Bm, I think my wife is at the same stage as your wife. Accepting mostly but a hangup on me wearing skirts in the wide world. We try and push boundaries and my achieve our goal of full acceptance sometime.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Grok
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Grok »

Ordinary males aren't supposed to be interested in wearing skirts. Ordinary males don't show interest, so it is inconceivable that they could be interested.

But, some males may be curious but keep this to themselves because of the taboo. Overt interest is suppressed by society, so society ends up being oblivious.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by ScotL »

Grok wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:08 am Ordinary males aren't supposed to be interested in wearing skirts. Ordinary males don't show interest, so it is inconceivable that they could be interested.

But, some males may be curious but keep this to themselves because of the taboo. Overt interest is suppressed by society, so society ends up being oblivious.
Ordinary males aren’t outwardly allowed to be interested in fashion. Which means if something’s comfortable but not manly, men shouldn’t wear it. And isn’t that just crazy? Men can’t wear some article of clothing because it doesn’t fit some preordained set of rules from before we were born that we didn’t even vote on?
rivegauche
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by rivegauche »

It's the old story about society needing to put everyone and everything in a box. They define the box. It is their box. Once you decide you are not going to live in someone else's box you are free. There are very few situations in life where someone needs to know your sex or your gender so shy let people assume that control? A partner, on the other hand, does have a right to question decisions you make that depart from sex and gender conventions - but an interest in the topic does not give your partner control. If you love someone then what they think about you wearing a skirt or dress in public should matter to you but compromise should work in both directions. It is time, though, to stop obsessing about sex and gender and binary systems - for almost everyone this is a non-issue. If it is perceived as a issue - mixed fitting rooms, for example, then fix the fitting rooms to make them more secure. Society is changing and changing facilities have to change with society. My own feeling is that they are not women's fitting rooms - they are fitting rooms for people who wish to try on the goods on sale. They are customers' fitting rooms.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

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Barleymower wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:43 pm So for whatever reason I put on a skirt at Easter and I have been wearing one nearly full time ever since. My wife was/is struggling with the concept. She had a man's man now she has a man's man in a skirt.
Hi Barleymower,
Yeah our partners can be more than a tad tricky over our fashion choices.
If your lady is willing, she could visit here herself or just show her some of the posts.
Keep the communications open and figure some mutual compromises then with goodwill on both sides, "normal" service may be resumed.
Barleymower wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:14 pm I feel I need to further explain what I have said which sem to have been lost in translation.
I am not so sure that you do and a message to the rest of the guys.
Sure erudite and learned comment is commendable but where precisely does it get us?
The intricacies of the language, societal mores and interpersonal relationships are all ripe for the deepest academic analysis.
The outcome of which makes virtually no practical difference in the real world. We have said this before, this problem is emotional so a logical solution is very unlikely
More so it does not offer any practical help to "F" as she struggles with the concept of her "Mans Man in a Skirt".
Steve.
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Chirp »

How about wearing kilt,
Kilts have changed a lot over last few years,
Much lighter ones, More colors, Sure its not a women's skirt, But its something that
will help her with idea of people watching,
When home wear what ever u want.

U can get away with panty hose and kilt,
Just saying,
No one mess's with a big guy in kilt
Barleymower
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Re: Progress - maybe lack of it

Post by Barleymower »

Chirp wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:21 am How about wearing kilt,
Kilts have changed a lot over last few years,
Much lighter ones, More colors, Sure its not a women's skirt, But its something that
will help her with idea of people watching,
When home wear what ever u want.

U can get away with panty hose and kilt,
Just saying,
I hear what you are saying but I'm not a big fan of kilts enough though I have one. I like soft light fabrics with lots of colour. They make me feel on top of the world. I
I know that a lot of the guys here wear tights etc but I'm not keen on going any further than a skirt. That leaves me with a whole new exciting world. More than enough for me. 🙂
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