Progress - maybe lack of it

[moonshadow]

Barelymower,

I too have struggled with many of the thoughts you're dealing with. I can honestly say with experience that what works for me likely won't work for you in its entirety, as I've yet to meet anyone else that really "gets what I'm trying to say" when I start exploring these thoughts regarding my own situation.

But here goes anyway... I'm not a religious person, but I do believe that there is something that makes us more than the sum of our own parts, a spirit, or a "soul" if you will. I believe that soul is where our gender resides. Nobody is 100% masculine or 100% feminine, everybody is a very unique blend of a this and that, and each person has to work out for themselves how to reconcile these matters to live a life of internal peace. Some struggle more than others. Even in the trans community, it seems if you ask a hundred transgender people what "being transgender" means, you'll likely get two hundred different answers. It means different things to different people, and then we're not even counting in this statistic people like many on this site that simply like the look and feel of a skirt, and otherwise consider themselves completely cis-gender.

Anyway, I often feel very feminine, and yes many times I wish I was born a biological female, but then again, every time I look at my body in the mirror, I'm generally pleased with it. It's been good to me, and I feel it would be in bad taste towards fate to complain about it. My wife also needs a man in her life and my daughter needs a father. Sometimes the situation demands that I "be a man", other times I can let my guard down and allow my inner femininity come out to play. It really just depends on what's going on at that given time.

I can't tell you where this path you're on will lead. But I do know that when exploring your own heart, there are no wrong paths or wrong answers. It's your heart after all, and the path will be enlightening no matter what you do.

To thine own self be true...

[rode_kater]

I'm not sure that I would dare try it. And remember, it is not "what could have been": it's a fantasy which even months of hormones, surgery, and amazing cosmetics would not bring to reality.

Two years ago (around the beginning of the whole corona thing, before it got really bad) I finally got the courage to do one of those makeovers, where a professional would do the whole makeup and dress thing, with a photo-shoot. I'd been thinking about if for ages: did I really want to be female?

As it turns out, it was really fun and I'm very glad I did it. Because I saw myself in the mirror and... it didn't do anything for me. After that it was clear, I don't want to be a women, I just want to wear their clothes. It was such a relief to be able let that go.

I consider myself lucky though. Suppose it had gone the other way, then I'd have been really stuck. Because whatever people say, one does not do transitioning for fun. It's not fun in any sense.

It's a kind of Pandora's box. Once you open it it cannot be closed, you know your answer, one way or the other. And you have to decide if not knowing for sure is better.

[Barleymower]

Barelymower,

I too have struggled with many of the thoughts you're dealing with. I can honestly say with experience that what works for me likely won't work for you in its entirety, as I've yet to meet anyone else that really "gets what I'm trying to say" when I start exploring these thoughts regarding my own situation.

But here goes anyway... I'm not a religious person, but I do believe that there is something that makes us more than the sum of our own parts, a spirit, or a "soul" if you will. I believe that soul is where our gender resides. Nobody is 100% masculine or 100% feminine, everybody is a very unique blend of a this and that, and each person has to work out for themselves how to reconcile these matters to live a life of internal peace. Some struggle more than others. Even in the trans community, it seems if you ask a hundred transgender people what "being transgender" means, you'll likely get two hundred different answers. It means different things to different people, and then we're not even counting in this statistic people like many on this site that simply like the look and feel of a skirt, and otherwise consider themselves completely cis-gender.

Anyway, I often feel very feminine, and yes many times I wish I was born a biological female, but then again, every time I look at my body in the mirror, I'm generally pleased with it. It's been good to me, and I feel it would be in bad taste towards fate to complain about it. My wife also needs a man in her life and my daughter needs a father. Sometimes the situation demands that I "be a man", other times I can let my guard down and allow my inner femininity come out to play. It really just depends on what's going on at that given time.

I can't tell you where this path you're on will lead. But I do know that when exploring your own heart, there are no wrong paths or wrong answers. It's your heart after all, and the path will be enlightening no matter what you do.

To thine own self be true...

Moon, what you say strikes a cord with me and most likely with many or us, men and women.

[moonshadow]

I consider myself lucky though. Suppose it had gone the other way, then I'd have been really stuck. Because whatever people say, one does not do transitioning for fun. It's not fun in any sense.

There's so much to consider when deciding to transition completely. I've heard of many transgender women who have already started or completed the process of de-transitioning, and they do this for various reasons, but one common reason I hear often is there is just so much hostility in society towards transgender women who may not be completely passable. You basically enter a world where 50% of the population wants you dead, and 90% of the other 50% don't understand you, and think you're crazy. Maintaining gainful employment is difficult, trying to eek out of poverty, or not slip into it is also very difficult. Then there's the medical expenses, the fact that in the U.S. the ability to maintain medical insurance hinges mostly on your ability to find work with an employer that offers it, and even then many of these employers and the insurance plans that offer don't offer much for resources for transgender women.

When you decide to transition to a transgender woman, you basically ostracize yourself from western culture. You're on your own, your only community and kin are other transgender women, and even they can be difficult to find community with as they have their own crosses to bear. Often times you won't find sanctuary with the "LGB" of the acronym. I see A LOT of hate online directed towards transgender women from lesbians and gays.

Maybe in a few more generations it won't be so bad, but right now from where I stand, I think it would be safer being an Atheist in Iran that a transgender woman in many parts of America, and from the looks of what I'm reading on the wire, it doesn't sound like the U.K. is much better. Seems even in the U.K. there has been some substantial push-back regarding transgender women.

It takes a LOT of courage and determination, and as for me, I find it much more bearable to simply be what I figure I am... a gender feminine male that uses masculine pronouns and men's public facilities... keeps the drama to a minimum. Society seems to abide my skirt wearing for the most part, but I do try to stay in my lane.

Footnote: You'll note I haven't mentioned transgender men in my comment. From my observation, while they have some hurdles to clear, it's nothing in comparison to transgender women. Virtually ALL of the laws Republican states are trying to pass are to restrict transgender women (and girls) specifically. Nobody cares if a trans-man enters a mens room, nobody cares if a trans-boy plays on a boys sports team, you never really hear much about them on the news being bullied, harassed, killed, etc... They get a pass because they have that vagina.

[ScotL]

They get a pass because they have that vagina.

I wonder how much the same sexism that affects our desire to wear a skirt is playing here.

We still live in a system where masculine attributes of toughness and power are favored and feminine attributes are thought of as weakness. This sets up a polarity of what’s desired. So a woman being a woman is just exhibiting her femininity but if she acts like a man, that’s good. A man who is tough and powerful is just being a man but if he acts like a woman, he’s lessened himself by becoming weak.

So in this stupid polarity, trans females have given up their male power whereas trans males have become powerful.

Not to mention, sexual assault is predominantly against females. There are clearly men who have been sexually assaulted but it’s clearly more often seen against women. That said, the concern of a biological male entering a womens bathroom tiles up the political base way more than a biological female entering a mens bathroom.

[Barleymower]

I'm not sure that I would dare try it. And remember, it is not "what could have been": it's a fantasy which even months of hormones, surgery, and amazing cosmetics would not bring to reality.

It's a kind of Pandora's box. Once you open it it cannot be closed, you know your answer, one way or the other. And you have to decide if not knowing for sure is better.

I have asked myself this question before and to answer it in my own mind have asked myself: "what if it doesn't work out?" what then? Do I want it that badly that I'll do it no matter the outcome.
The answer was "no I don't want it at any price".
So here I am, married to a lovely lady with three lovely kids. Learning to live with myself after 50 years of being.

To lighten the mood I have just got a skirt back from a really talented tailor. He's really good and reasonably priced. I bought this skirt as an ebay special it's a mix of cotton and silk with a pure silk lining. It was sold as a size 14 but was really a size 8. With the tailors help, the skirt is now is 1.5 inches shorter and a 35 inch waist which fit me perfectly. It has a silk lining which feels glorious and in the light you can see little threads of silk running through the main fabric. It has a nice 60's feel to it. I wore it all day yesterday. I was happy all day.

[pelmut]

Do not for an instant believe the claptrap that the radical "feminists" are pushing -- it's toxic through and through.

Many of us don't believe it, but unfortunately many women do.  I have recently lost a good friend because she believed the poisonous nonsense about transwomen in the UK right-wing press and has told me never to visit her again.  How can you fight illogical rubbish that taps into women's emotions?

[crfriend]

Many of us don't believe it, but unfortunately many women do.  I have recently lost a good friend because she believed the poisonous nonsense about transwomen in the UK right-wing press and has told me never to visit her again.  How can you fight illogical rubbish that taps into women's emotions?

Well, that's got to be more than a little bit painful.

The bald fact is that the claptrap is aimed directly at women, and couched in emotional term that women grasp best. The male of the species tends to be a bit more cerebral about matters and can filter claptrap from fact. It's akin to arguing using logic when the crux of an argument is entirely emotional -- it does not work. This puts men at a disadvantage, and the radicals know this.

The sad upshot of this is likely that you'll have to bid your woman friend an "adieu", and move on. There's likely no other path.

I have a housemate where I've lived for more than seven years whom I am convinced is terrified of me -- for the simple fact that I'm a man. And this is somebody I've never once been cross with, have never made advances on, and have generally been entirely helpful and understanding with. Yet she recoils from me if I get within about ten feet of her. So I don't. It's so sad what's happened in the past 40 years. So sad.

[Barleymower]

Many of us don't believe it, but unfortunately many women do.  I have recently lost a good friend because she believed the poisonous nonsense about transwomen in the UK right-wing press and has told me never to visit her again.  How can you fight illogical rubbish that taps into women's emotions?

Well, that's got to be more than a little bit painful.

The bald fact is that the claptrap is aimed directly at women, and couched in emotional term that women grasp best. The male of the species tends to be a bit more cerebral about matters and can filter claptrap from fact. It's akin to arguing using logic when the crux of an argument is entirely emotional -- it does not work. This puts men at a disadvantage, and the radicals know this.

The sad upshot of this is likely that you'll have to bid your woman friend an "adieu", and move on. There's likely no other path.

I have a housemate where I've lived for more than seven years whom I am convinced is terrified of me -- for the simple fact that I'm a man. And this is somebody I've never once been cross with, have never made advances on, and have generally been entirely helpful and understanding with. Yet she recoils from me if I get within about ten feet of her. So I don't. It's so sad what's happened in the past 40 years. So sad.

I have not looked very deeply into it. Who are radical feminists? How do they differ from feminists? This is not a leading question. I'm aware that what's said here is public, can be considered "toxic" and give the cafe a bad reputation

[crfriend]

I have not looked very deeply into it. Who are radical feminists? How do they differ from feminists? This is not a leading question. I'm aware that what's said here is public, can be considered "toxic" and give the cafe a bad reputation

We're all familiar with "classical" or "equality" feminism. These are the class that championed things like Women's Suffrage, and equal pay for equal work -- laudable goals. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough for a subset of radicals who want to completely marginalise men and make them irrelevant. These are the class that regard men as nothing more than wallets, sperm-donors, and preferably institutionalised prisoners.

The equality part has largely been won, and thus the traditional equality feminists found themselves without much of a footing -- and that's when the radicals started taking over and things started going downhill for men, and fast. The new set are after complete and absolute dominion; equality is not on the agenda, they want the raw power and absolute control. And they're getting it -- and poisoning the landscape in the process.

[ScotL]

I think as a cafe we should stop talking about them in general and focus on men wearing skirts. We won’t agree on whether women have or have not achieved equality. Whether the pay disparity is real or a product of timing. Whether radical feminists even truly exist. We all just won’t agree.

But unless a radical feminist group comes out and states in their bylaws that they are gonna hunt men wearing skirts, I think all discussions of radical feminists will serve only to rile up and keep us away from talking about men who want to wear skirts as a fashion choice.

This is all I’m going to say/respond/post about radical feminists cause I don’t want to steer this thread off kilter.

[pelmut]

...Who are radical feminists? How do they differ from feminists?

In the UK they are a group of (mostly lesbian) women who hate men and will stop at nothing to make life difficult for them, even if it means collateral damage for 'ordinary' women and transgender children.  They are particularly vicious where transwomen are concerned and have spent large sums of money fighting hopeless legal cases, eagerly supported by the gutter press   -- apparently on the principle that if you throw enough sh*t at the wall, some of it will stick.  Some of their funding has been traced back to extremist American churches.

The only connection they have with feminists and campaigners for women's equality is the theft of their name.  Most genuine women's rights organisations disown them, as do all religions worthy of the name.

[Barleymower]

We're all familiar with "classical" or "equality" feminism. These are the class that championed things like Women's Suffrage, and equal pay for equal work -- laudable goals. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough for a subset of radicals who want to completely marginalise men and make them irrelevant. These are the class that regard men as nothing more than wallets, sperm-donors, and preferably institutionalised prisoners.

I think as a cafe we should stop talking about them in general and focus on men wearing skirts.

In the UK they are a group of (mostly lesbian) women who hate men and will stop at nothing to make life difficult for them, even if it means collateral damage for 'ordinary' women and transgender children.  

Thanks everyone, I have a clearer picture on the groups opinion coupled with what I have read on Wikipedia today.

My last words on the subject:
Any kind of hatred, well meaning hatred, hatred to protect others is ultimately doomed.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs indicates society has solved all of its immediate needs. We have reached the pinnacle - self actualisation. The fulfilment of full potential as a person. That pinnacle has been passed and in an effort to further self actualise we are consuming ourselves. Radical feminism is an example. There could be tough times ahead for everyone. We cannot second guess how it will be only that it is happening and growing.

When I started wearing a skirt I had a dream that other men would see how stylish it is and want the same. Closeted skirt wearers would come out and join me in the new found freedom. That didn't happen. I was largely accepted but also ignored. I was called 'Madam' in Morrison's supermarket. I have been 'hit on' by a man in Costco over the chicken stock cubes. I've seen a very sad photo real image of myself as a woman, considered transitioning and come close to loosing my wife. The journey has full of unexpected happenings.

Members of the skirtcafe are healthy people, I (we) are not (I hope) crushing our feelings with drugs and alcohol. Survival is all about adapting to new situations. We have adapted to ourselves, we can adapt again. Others, handcuffed to their hatred may not be so lucky.

Moving on: I'm wearing one of my most favourite skirts; my stripy blue and green lighter than light skirt from Monsoon. I love it. My wife is doing scouts today. So I get to wear it for the rest of the day. Including a trip to the supermarket. I like trips out in a skirt. It is coupled with a teeshirt and a brown wool fishermans jumper... an my boots of course.

have a great evening wherever you are.

[crfriend]

Maslow's hierarchy of needs indicates society has solved all of its immediate needs. We have reached the pinnacle - self actualisation. The fulfilment of full potential as a person. That pinnacle has been passed and in an effort to further self actualise we are consuming ourselves. Radical feminism is an example. There could be tough times ahead for everyone. We cannot second guess how it will be only that it is happening and growing.

There's a problem with that hypothesis -- one of the foundational components of Maslow's Hierarchy is now missing, and has been missing for at least a couple of years now and has been being eroded, slowly at first and then accelerating in pace. I refer to "security", specifically economic security and increasingly physical security as well. Economic security largely disappeared at the outset of the COVID epidemic, and physical security issues followed as they must. We find ourselves seated on a 2-legged stool, and this causes enormous angst, discontent, and ultimately fear. And it brings out the worst in people.

I am exceedingly conservative when it comes to money matters, but even I find myself a single serious illness or a car crash away from bankruptcy. Or a bank "failure" caused by greedy executives who pocket the money and run. It's exceedingly uncomfortable -- and I'm better off that lots of folks who are barely scraping by on 3 McJobs and scurrying to and from them simply to make ends meet.

When I started wearing a skirt I had a dream that other men would see how stylish it is and want the same. Closeted skirt wearers would come out and join me in the new found freedom. That didn't happen. I was largely accepted but also ignored. I was called 'Madam' in Morrison's supermarket. I have been 'hit on' by a man in Costco over the chicken stock cubes. I've seen a very sad photo real image of myself as a woman, considered transitioning and come close to loosing my wife. The journey has full of unexpected happenings.

Our journeys must be as different as our lives, outlooks, and personalities. I've never been "mistaken" for a woman, likely because of my simple size and full set of facial hair. Yes, I have had some snide cracks made, but those can easily be taken in stride.

I actually had a bit of a hialrious moment with a number of elder ladies at my local who are members of the Red Hat Society, and they use the colours red and purple to set themselves apart, and it's an entirely lovely look. Turns out I was wearing red and purple last night what with my maroon satin palazzos, a purple velvet waistcoat, and red velvet blouse. I wandered over to them on my way out and congratulated them. "Ladies, I'd like to thank you for injecting a much-needed shot of colour into this monochrome world we live in now." I suspect they were all atwitter for hours afterwards at that what with having it delivered rather eloquently -- by a man who (with heels) towered about at about 6'6".

I have never considered being anything other than what I am, and I'm happy with that for I am entirely comfortable with it, in spite of some of the hurdles and difficulties I've encountered in the past.

What breaks my heart is how half the population can be so callous as to deny a simple article of clothing to another based on what's between their legs. That is just so stupid.

[Barleymower]

Hi Crfriend,
I wasn't mistaken for a woman. I would not have minded, women look better than men. I'm not especially tall, tall enough at 5'10. I am bald and I have a beard. Hardly feminine.
My daughter explained things. She said: he doesn't see many if any men in a skirt. For all he knew you were transitioning (I nearly was ). He was just being polite. I didn't take it badly.
Adrian