Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Coder
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Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by Coder »

https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/fas ... 804-p5b77a

I wasn't going to post this article as it's focused on women wearing skirts, but a part of the article irked me:
Women’s clothing has been policed more consistently and with more vigour than men’s; skirts are just the beginning of a long list (see also: leggings, shorts, bloomers, crop tops).
I take exception to this for one reason and one reason only - men aren't allowed to express themselves via clothes, so there is less to object about. Additionally, men are kept in strict compliance of their allowed forms of expression. Significant others, spouses, family - men try one thing out of line and they are labeled a "sissy" or "creep" and must comply or face being a social outcast.

I'm not trying to equate our issues with the kinds of outfit criticisms women receive (or even say "woe is me") - but it's not all sunshine and roses on our side of the aisle either.

I think if there was anything I'd take away from the article, it's this statement that could be applied to us equally:
Of course, all of this is just noise, and just as wearing a mini is completely your choice, so too is the way you style it. If we have learned anything from the regulating of women’s appearances, it is that you simply cannot win, no matter what you do.

So do what you want.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Coder,
We all know that ever since clothes were invented there have been restriction and even laws regarding who was allowed to wear what.
As the dominant pattern for society was patriarchal, women had the least rights and not just regarding clothes.
Enough said as we are still suffering that hangover now.
Men are allowed to wear whatever they wish but not all men know that, yet!
Coder wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:37 am Of course, all of this is just noise, and just as wearing a mini is completely your choice, so too is the way you style it. If we have learned anything from the regulating of women’s appearances, it is that you simply cannot win, no matter what you do. So do what you want.
Agreed, but with one tiny alteration, "women's" become "people's".
Steve.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by Sinned »

I couldn't see the article beyond the first few lines as it was subscription which I am not going to pay for one article. How can you police boring? If everyone is wearing more or less the same then there is no need.

As a product of the sixties for me mini skirts never went away which is why they are one of my favourite garments. I'm going to a leaving do tomorrow night ( not mine although that will come ) and my wife is at work that night so I shall be going in a skirt. My colleagues have seen me in one before so it's nothing new to them.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

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STEVIE wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 am
Coder wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:37 am Of course, all of this is just noise, and just as wearing a mini is completely your choice, so too is the way you style it. If we have learned anything from the regulating of women’s appearances, it is that you simply cannot win, no matter what you do. So do what you want.
Agreed, but with one tiny alteration, "women's" become "people's".
Steve.
LOL - yes, that is a necessary alteration.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

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STEVIE wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 am Men are allowed to wear whatever they wish but not all men know that, yet!
Steve.
I think this is very much the case. I have never felt that I am not allowed to wear a skirt nor restricted, condemmed or criticised for wearing one, perhaps surprise or curiosity at most.
It would be good if mini skirts are back in fashion for women as it means more availability for us blokes. I think I would die waiting for mini skirts for men and probably wouldn't like the style anyway.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

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STEVIE wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 am Men are allowed to wear whatever they wish but not all men know that, yet!
Steve.
As a nudist, I know that isn't true. Most places certain body parts must be covered. I couldn't go out in public in this most places:
Image
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by STEVIE »

Jim wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:46 pm
STEVIE wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 am Men are allowed to wear whatever they wish but not all men know that, yet!
Steve.
As a nudist, I know that isn't true. Most places certain body parts must be covered. I couldn't go out in public in this most places:
Sorry Jim but my point was what men could do and not what the legalities prevent. Also public nudity would apply to women too so actual equality on that score.
As for the illustration, there is nothing to stop you wearing that, albeit, just not as a top layer.
For what it is worth too, there are countries where a guy in a skirt is likely to be arrested and more areas yet where it would be foolhardy.
Certain parts of America and Russia have got that much in common.
Steve.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by Dust »

STEVIE wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:08 am ...
As the dominant pattern for society was patriarchal, women had the least rights and not just regarding clothes.
...
No. No, no, no. Just no.

Societies are not primarily "patriarchal." When men are expected to die for women, that ain't patriarchy. Men have always been expected to take on the risks that keep society moving forward and to protect and provide for women.

Patriarchy is just a half baked theory cooked up by feminists to gaslight society into giving them what they want. It is easily disproven. We have never had a society made for the benefit of men at the expense of women. That's nonsense.

Women and children first, anyone? How about the laws requiring men to go to prison in their wives place if she committed a crime? We used to have that in the West, from Europe to America. Women may not have been treated the same under the law, they were protected and privileged under it. And when they asked to have more freedoms, they often got them, at least for a time, without giving up the special protections they had. When they asked for the "privileges" that men had, they got them without taking on the responsibilities that men had used those things to fulfill.

Even the most brutally oppressive Islamic regime requires that men protect and provide for the women in their lives. Even if the "man" in question is a thirteen year old kid who's dad got killed and now has to feed his mom and older sisters, even if they are more capable of providing for themselves than he is. This dynamic of expectations placed on men and protections given to women is near universal.

I know this stupid patriarchy crap is all over the place and just accepted without question by a lot of smart folks who just don't stop to think about it, but us guys on here should know better. Clothing is the most visible double standard between the sexes, though far from the most significant. Men are worse off on nearly every metric, and yet we get institutionally crapped on and told to stop whining. Wake up!
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by STEVIE »

Dust wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:13 am Men are worse off on nearly every metric, and yet we get institutionally crapped on and told to stop whining. Wake up!
This is going to get over wrought so leave it at that.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by Jim »

Dust wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:13 am
Societies are not primarily "patriarchal." When men are expected to die for women, that ain't patriarchy. Men have always been expected to take on the risks that keep society moving forward and to protect and provide for women.

Patriarchy is just a half baked theory cooked up by feminists to gaslight society into giving them what they want. It is easily disproven. We have never had a society made for the benefit of men at the expense of women. That's nonsense.
...
I think what you disprove is that patriarchy is good for men. It is bad for both men and women.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by Dust »

Jim wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:28 am
Dust wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:13 am
Societies are not primarily "patriarchal." When men are expected to die for women, that ain't patriarchy. Men have always been expected to take on the risks that keep society moving forward and to protect and provide for women.

Patriarchy is just a half baked theory cooked up by feminists to gaslight society into giving them what they want. It is easily disproven. We have never had a society made for the benefit of men at the expense of women. That's nonsense.
...
I think what you disprove is that patriarchy is good for men. It is bad for both men and women.
We probably need to step back and define patriarchy. My working definition is above, but I'll quote myself again:
Dust wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:13 am ... a society made for the benefit of men at the expense of women.
I could probably expand on that, but it should do as is.

Unfortunately, the definitions keep changing which means a rational discussion can't be had. Hence my palpable frustration and the fact that this term is still being bandied about in certain circles long after it should have been discredited as something that ever really existed.

Now we have a notion of patriarchy that is bad for men. Why are we still calling it patriarchy? The name still evokes men keeping women down, while "academics" can argue that it is still a reasonable idea that the little people just don't understand.

If you think patriarchy refers to a small group of elites running things, that may be the case, but that group has always included at least some women, directly or indirectly weilding power. (Queens existed going back to ancient times, and the wives of powerful men often have enormous influence.) Oligarchy might be the term you are looking for.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by crfriend »

Dust wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:39 amOligarchy might be the term you are looking for.
Rule by, and for the benefit, of a few individuals is your target, oligarchy is the term. Patriarchy, is the rule of males -- specifically fathers.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by Stu »

Dust wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:13 am
I know this stupid patriarchy crap is all over the place and just accepted without question by a lot of smart folks who just don't stop to think about it, but us guys on here should know better. Clothing is the most visible double standard between the sexes, though far from the most significant. Men are worse off on nearly every metric, and yet we get institutionally crapped on and told to stop whining. Wake up!
You are so right! :D
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

Post by rode_kater »

Dust wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:39 am If you think patriarchy refers to a small group of elites running things, that may be the case, but that group has always included at least some women, directly or indirectly weilding power. (Queens existed going back to ancient times, and the wives of powerful men often have enormous influence.) Oligarchy might be the term you are looking for.
The definition most relevant in the dictionary is: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.

This was certainly true for quite a while, if by "power" you mean "holding positions in government". Women were only allowed to be elected to the NL parliament after the 1918 constitutional change. Despite the fact that queens were not uncommon. My favourite example is Johanna Borski who single-handedly saved the Dutch central bank from ruin in 1814. She was a very wealthy widow, but officially not allowed to enter the stock exchange to trade. But when she arrived in her coach and her secretary went into the exchange to trade, everybody knew that it was she that was doing the actual trading. The first women to be allowed to trade on the Dutch stock exchange was only in 1923.

The way I read it is that the actual laws and rules excluding women were made by a few elitists, most normal people didn't mind so much (though they didn't agitate for change either). Officially wives were not allowed to enter into financial transactions, but no supermarket was going to refuse a sale on the basis the buyer was a married women. Even though officially Holland limited jews in various ways in the middle-ages, when at local level discussions needed to be held about building and upgrading dykes and the funding thereof, nobody cared what religion you had, as long as you did your bit. The fight against the water was more important than worrying about other people's religions.

I don't think we can meaningfully talk about a patriarchy any-more. Women are no longer excluded and haven't been for quite a while now.
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Re: Sydney Morning Herald: Mini skirts are back: Let women wear them in peace

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rode_kater wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:56 pmThe definition most relevant in the dictionary is: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
What the dictionary fails to take into account is the huge amount of power that a wife has on her husband, and with that power comes influence. There have always been powerful women in the wings, hence the old adage of, "They who rock the cradle rule the world."
I don't think we can meaningfully talk about a patriarchy any-more. Women are no longer excluded and haven't been for quite a while now.
No, we cant, and haven't really been able to for about 30 years.
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