That is a terrible description, it is so weak and wide ranging that it covers most people pretty much all the time.jamie001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:46 pm I believe that there is a label for us, and that label is "Gender Nonconforming". Here is the definition:
denoting or relating to a person whose behavior or appearance does not conform to prevailing cultural and social expectations about what is appropriate to their gender.
I am fine with this label because it describes me.
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Agreed - one of the many problems I have with that label. It’s an easy cop out - “oh, I’m gender non conforming”. It is the equivalent of the “man card” - “because I’m this way, my behavior can be explained”.Bodycon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:56 pmThat is a terrible description, it is so weak and wide ranging that it covers most people pretty much all the time.jamie001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:46 pm I believe that there is a label for us, and that label is "Gender Nonconforming". Here is the definition:
denoting or relating to a person whose behavior or appearance does not conform to prevailing cultural and social expectations about what is appropriate to their gender.
I am fine with this label because it describes me.
More and more I’m trying to just be at peace with myself, who I am (“me”), and let it be. I wear skirts - and that is that. Granted, this mindset isn’t working very well in my case
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There are clear boundaries now but it has not always been the case. Historically speaking men used to be the more flamboyant creature with the ladies dressed in a sober manner.
Here is a youtube video from Karolina Żebrowska who puts it very well:
https://youtu.be/roPQKEZK2X4
Here is a youtube video from Karolina Żebrowska who puts it very well:
https://youtu.be/roPQKEZK2X4
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The historical dress boundaries were actually a damn sight clearer.Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:37 pm Historically speaking men used to be the more flamboyant creature with the ladies dressed in a sober manner.
Sumptuary Law dictated precisely what could be worn and by whom. Wearing the wrong colour could get you executed!
It is societal perception of what is gender appropriate that has shifted and it has created a false construct to the extent that male fashion freedom is beset by pointless taboos and individual anxiety.
A lot of cafe members, myself included, have suffered psychologically for this very reason and it really is b******t.
Thanks Coder, your timing and the comment sums up the point just perfectly.
Clothing is inanimate so one cannot relate sex or gender to it, society has it wrong!
Like Coder, I'm a dude, I wear skirts and dresses, so what?
Objections to that are not my problem, I haven't had to seek permission in that respect for a long time and don't intend going back now.
Finally, I have just spent a most enjoyable morning in our local Art Gallery.
Not been a regular visitor in a long time but the staff remember me and it is not because I exude machismo either.
As for Ms Zebrowska, I really am not sure of where she was really heading but that is just me.
Steve.
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The problem here that I see is having to be seen as "masculine". Women consciously add masculine flare to their looks all of the time and do not fear embracing masculine clothing. For example, boyfriends jeans, boyfriends shirts, etc. Men need to loose the fear of the feminine and realize that they have a feminine side and to proudly express it. We need to see girlfriends skirts for men that are cut to fit a man's body in mens sizes. Men need to proudly embrace the feminine and stop being so preoccupied with appearing masculine.Coder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:39 pmUltimately it would be nice if men could expand their presentation choices, such that skirts/dresses/etc could be seen as “masculine” so more men wouldn’t be afraid of wearing those items, but the more I reflect on things the more I suspect humans like to have clear boundaries/differences between the sexes.Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:54 am In London in the warm weather I see lots of women celebrating their womanhood with lovely skirts and dresses. Men just don't have the nerve to celebrate their manhood in the same skirts/dresses/fabrics.
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I don't see this definition as being incorrect. In my case, I am a feminine male that wears skirts, women's purses, feminine hairstyle, pantyhose, women's sandals, and red nail polish. For me, the definition of "gender nonconforming" fits because I don't fit the cookie cutter mode of a typical male.Bodycon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:56 pmThat is a terrible description, it is so weak and wide ranging that it covers most people pretty much all the time.jamie001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:46 pm I believe that there is a label for us, and that label is "Gender Nonconforming". Here is the definition:
denoting or relating to a person whose behavior or appearance does not conform to prevailing cultural and social expectations about what is appropriate to their gender.
I am fine with this label because it describes me.
Re: New to the forum - Help needed
I think that makes my point, it may fit you, however, I for example, wear only skirts (with tights in cold weather), mostly while hill walking, but occasionally for general wear, no makeup or accessories.jamie001 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:08 pmI don't see this definition as being incorrect. In my case, I am a feminine male that wears skirts, women's purses, feminine hairstyle, pantyhose, women's sandals, and red nail polish. For me, the definition of "gender nonconforming" fits because I don't fit the cookie cutter mode of a typical male.Bodycon wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:56 pmThat is a terrible description, it is so weak and wide ranging that it covers most people pretty much all the time.jamie001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:46 pm I believe that there is a label for us, and that label is "Gender Nonconforming". Here is the definition:
denoting or relating to a person whose behavior or appearance does not conform to prevailing cultural and social expectations about what is appropriate to their gender.
I am fine with this label because it describes me.
The definition covers me in the same way as it covers a straight, CIS, woman wearing a three piece suit, however is totally inaccurate.
I'm glad you have found your pigeon hole, I'll stay in the tree.
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It's a mindset shift I'd love to see, but doubt it will happen in any of our lifetimes.jamie001 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:05 pmThe problem here that I see is having to be seen as "masculine". Women consciously add masculine flare to their looks all of the time and do not fear embracing masculine clothing. For example, boyfriends jeans, boyfriends shirts, etc. Men need to loose the fear of the feminine and realize that they have a feminine side and to proudly express it. We need to see girlfriends skirts for men that are cut to fit a man's body in mens sizes. Men need to proudly embrace the feminine and stop being so preoccupied with appearing masculine.Coder wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:39 pmUltimately it would be nice if men could expand their presentation choices, such that skirts/dresses/etc could be seen as “masculine” so more men wouldn’t be afraid of wearing those items, but the more I reflect on things the more I suspect humans like to have clear boundaries/differences between the sexes.Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:54 am In London in the warm weather I see lots of women celebrating their womanhood with lovely skirts and dresses. Men just don't have the nerve to celebrate their manhood in the same skirts/dresses/fabrics.
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Looking around me all the guys are in trousers and I would agree but that's negative.
My opinion is men did it before, they can and should do it again. If we think negatively then we will fulfill our own prophecy. We need to all make it happen. There are tonnes of men out there who would jump at the chance if it was fashionable.
My opinion is men did it before, they can and should do it again. If we think negatively then we will fulfill our own prophecy. We need to all make it happen. There are tonnes of men out there who would jump at the chance if it was fashionable.
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No. Full stop. Just because it describes you does not mean that it describes us, and there's also the problem that the term is so overloaded with other meanings that it becomes dangerous for anybody who is even remotely "normal" to use it. It's just wrong for this use.jamie001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:46 pmI believe that there is a label for us, and that label is "Gender Nonconforming". Here is the definition:
denoting or relating to a person whose behavior or appearance does not conform to prevailing cultural and social expectations about what is appropriate to their gender.
I am fine with this label because it describes me.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Even Freud was eventually forced to concede that point. For many of us, this is a style choice and nothing more. It has precisely nothing whatsoever to do with gender, save that some of us have been envious of the options of the "other" gender for much of our lifetimes. The fact that we could only look on with envy is what should be being reviled, not the fact that some of us blokes wear skirts and dresses now!
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So very true!Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:54 am
When I go clay shooting I want to concentrate on the clay not my clothes. If I wore a skirt it would provoke a reaction, they would go along with the rest of the group. They are too entrenched in their own frail self image. Men are as bad if not worse than women in this respect.
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Barleymower wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:12 pm My opinion is men did it before, they can and should do it again. If we think negatively then we will fulfill our own prophecy. We need to all make it happen. There are tonnes of men out there who would jump at the chance if it was fashionable.
The more it's done, the more chance it has to become normal and acceptable mens fashion.
Although its motivational to share ideas online (here & similar sites), nothing is really gained until you step out the front door.
As a man, in a skirt.
Now into my 5th summer wearing skirts, it feels quite normal. Most people either wont notice or wont care. Of the few who comment, 99% of the time its positive. Very rare to hear something negative. Doesn't matter much to me, I know what I am. And I don't need their approval.
Pants/trousers were absolutely unacceptable for women in the early 1900's. Unfashionable, indecent, even illegal. Fortunately, they fought back against the idiocy and now its completely normal.
When enough men muster up the courage to step out in a skirt, it will become less of an issue.
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As much as it’s trying to be dressed up as incorrect, a man in a skirt is gender non-conforming. In modern western culture, a skirt is considered a female garment. Yes, you can argue that clothes have no gender, but as soon as you put on any clothes not associated with the western male gender stereotype you are gender non-conforming.
It’s similar with kilts. They have a cultural significance, and it’s only now on certain occasions that men wear Highland dress. You don’t walk down the street in Scotland and see swathes of guys wearing kilts because there’s a cultural responsibility for that outfit. So is a Utility kilt actually a kilt at all? If I’m honest as a Scot, I don’t consider it in that way. It’s a skirt.
People are free to wear what they please, and to justify it how they please. It’s really no big deal. Just because someone is gender non-conforming doesn’t mean that they want to step into that other gender.
It’s similar with kilts. They have a cultural significance, and it’s only now on certain occasions that men wear Highland dress. You don’t walk down the street in Scotland and see swathes of guys wearing kilts because there’s a cultural responsibility for that outfit. So is a Utility kilt actually a kilt at all? If I’m honest as a Scot, I don’t consider it in that way. It’s a skirt.
People are free to wear what they please, and to justify it how they please. It’s really no big deal. Just because someone is gender non-conforming doesn’t mean that they want to step into that other gender.
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By that argument, if I'm not The Marlboro Man I'm not a man; if I don't ooze testosterone and machismo I'm not male. I'm worthless and weak. Great.
Right there is the problem with the argument: "Gender non-conforming" means different things to different people and there is no good definition of it. Too, it does not apply to the female of the species which routinely emulates the other gender and never catches flak for it. That makes it discriminatory which is why I refuse to use it. I won't apply it to others, nor do I like having applied to me.
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