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[Andy_G]

As much as it’s trying to be dressed up as incorrect, a man in a skirt is gender non-conforming.

By that argument, if I'm not The Marlboro Man I'm not a man; if I don't ooze testosterone and machismo I'm not male. I'm worthless and weak. Great.

I’m really not sure how you managed to get from that conclusion from my original statement

Wearing clothes that are associated with another gender is gender non-conforming. Whether you accept it or not, it is a fact. However, there is a spectrum within this, from the “macho man” stereotype you describe to the androgynous male right through to those that present completely as female with all inbetween.

None of those that are gender non-conforming are worthless or weak. Quite the contrary, they are strong and bold.

[crfriend]

As much as it’s trying to be dressed up as incorrect, a man in a skirt is gender non-conforming.

By that argument, if I'm not The Marlboro Man I'm not a man; if I don't ooze testosterone and machismo I'm not male. I'm worthless and weak. Great.

I’m really not sure how you managed to get from that conclusion from my original statement

It was done by speculatively using herd mentality -- not so big a jump really. Individuals are smart and capable of rational thought; as a group, things get much more dicey.

Wearing clothes that are associated with another gender is gender non-conforming.

Is a man who has a full range of emotions and is aware of how those around him are feeling "Gender Non-conforming" as well? A guy who can feel sadness without it degenerating into rage? A guy who prefers to be polite to others? Where's the line? I'll posit that there is no line because the term is (a) discriminatory against men, (b) ill-defined at best, and (c) so broad as to be fundamentally meaningless save as a slur. Men have enough problems on their plates already, and too few outlets to get rid of them. Let's not pile something else on.

Whether you accept it or not, it is a fact.

The sun rising in the general direction of East is a fact; pop-sci, and current fad is not.

None of those that are gender non-conforming are worthless or weak. Quite the contrary, they are strong and bold.

The intelligent individual will get this. How often does that arise at the herd level, though? An individual can be reasoned with; the herd tends to panic.

[new2skirts]

In London in the warm weather I see lots of women celebrating their womanhood with lovely skirts and dresses. Men just don't have the nerve to celebrate their manhood in the same skirts/dresses/fabrics.

Unfortunately I disagree in one sense - when women dress like this they are embracing their innate femininity the way modern society expresses it. For men to embrace their innate masculinity, I would expect rugged boots, beards, and plaid shirts. I don’t think it is that they don’t have the nerve - they just go with the typical way their gender expresses itself.

Now… I dropped some loaded words there “innate” for instance… but I’m only talking in terms of the average bloke.

Ultimately it would be nice if men could expand their presentation choices, such that skirts/dresses/etc could be seen as “masculine” so more men wouldn’t be afraid of wearing those items, but the more I reflect on things the more I suspect humans like to have clear boundaries/differences between the sexes.

More than likely, just wearing a skirt as they are cooler in hot weather. A woman's temperature can be higher than a man's, more likely to feel sweaty / uncomfortable in jeans or leggings etc. Sometimes they may prefer to wear more clingy clothes to show off their figure and feel attractive or desireable, but to most women, skirts bring their own bother of upskirting, unwanted attention, the hassle of pantyhose, matching shoes etc.

For guys, the only option is shorts, or perhaps a kilt... I don't think most guys think of their masculinity in the same way as choosing certain clothes, as it's all the same only workwear may mean smarter chinos or a suit, it's mostly jeans, tracksuit bottoms or shorts. You just be a guy, without thinking too much about it. I think only trans men who will study how men sit and try to copy behaviour or styles openly think about it (perhaps exaggerating swagger, manspreading, etc ), the same for those transitioning to be women may exaggerate what they interpret to be female behaviour. Naturally in skirts I cross my legs or keep knees together, but there's no hands on hips or other traits associated with women as it's just more comfortable clothes. Sadly how society views those who are not part of the herd can persuade the majority to conform.

Guys in kilts (though expensive) are accepted, but gradually as observed on catwalks, more skirts are appearing, but generally are for celebrities or personalities rich enough to make a statement at events like Met Gala or London Fashion Week. I see loads of skirted guys on Instagram and the like, yet very few in meat space / real life

[Andy_G]

By that argument, if I'm not The Marlboro Man I'm not a man; if I don't ooze testosterone and machismo I'm not male. I'm worthless and weak. Great.

Is a man who has a full range of emotions and is aware of how those around him are feeling "Gender Non-conforming" as well? A guy who can feel sadness without it degenerating into rage? A guy who prefers to be polite to others? Where's the line? I'll posit that there is no line because the term is (a) discriminatory against men, (b) ill-defined at best, and (c) so broad as to be fundamentally meaningless save as a slur. Men have enough problems on their plates already, and too few outlets to get rid of them.

Emotions have absolutely nothing to do with gender confirmation. There are as many polite men as there are angry women. The individuals you describe above are probably still on tier two of Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs.

I suspect many women would find those views you express quite sexist.

[Coder]

I think what many here feel about the "Gender Non-conforming" (GNC) label/description is that it can carry with it a negative connotation. Yes, it is a matter of fact - but it is so broad where do you stop applying it? It generally is not applied to women except when they go to "extremes" because their boundaries have been expanded so much.

Perhaps a better exercise to understand why it is absurd - would be to make a list of all the "male gender stereotypes" and "female gender stereotypes" and think of it in those terms. I'm afraid to start for fear of being called a sexist - for instance take a mechanic position. Nowadays you wouldn't be too shocked to see a woman in that role, but it probably would be considered "gender non-conforming". Why? Well because she should have chosen to be a princess, housewife, nurse. Please understand what I wrote is dripping with sarcasm - I don't believe women or men should be limited in the careers they pursue - the point is:

Who decides what it is?
Where is the red gender non-conforming line?
When does something move out of the gender non-conforming realm?
What implications does it have?

Isn't it sufficient to say "men have autonomy over how they dress - whatever they choose to wear is their choice and they aren't making a point to conform to any stereotype". Cannot that be an option for those of us? Aren't we trying to break from stereotypes of any kind (or some kinds), and doesn't GNC reinforce stereotypes by essentially stating that men have to dress/act one way, women the other, and any other way is "wrong"? I realize GNC doesn't ascribe a "wrong" way, but in a black/white binary society anything other than the norm is "wrong".

[crfriend]

Emotions have absolutely nothing to do with gender confirmation. There are as many polite men as there are angry women. The individuals you describe above are probably still on tier two of Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs.

They don't? Consider that the only "approved" emotions for Real Men are rage, hate, and lust. Where do empathy, affection, and simple sadness fall? "Non-conforming"? Yes, the "individuals" I describe above are likely on Maslow's second tier -- just like most of modern society.

I suspect many women would find those views you express quite sexist.

And there are no sexist women? I highly suspect there are -- those who want to keep men "in their place".

Men have been relegated to a chunk of the ecosystem that's a tiny fraction of what they once had access to -- in expression, in attire, in deportment, and in employment. The resulting gap has been filled by women, and men -- afraid to look/seem/appear "un-manly" ("Gender Non-Conforming") have retreated back into the world of machismo. The result is poisonous, as we're seeing in society today. Men need to take back some of the space that they've relinquished, and the women need to learn again how to coexist with the guys.

[Andy_G]

Oh my goodness!! Those are incredibly blinkered and out-dated views. If you believe that these are the only emotion men are supposed to have, you really need to broaden your horizons a little.

Men aren’t oppressed or need to take back part parts of society that they have lost access to. Women need to be treated as equal in all of society including addressing the gender pay imbalance.

Gender Non-Conforming does not equal unmanly. This is clearly lost here.

[Barleymower]

Doesn't it all hang together with the old man = strong, woman = weak stereotype? On that basis of a woman enters the man world she gets stronger and if a man enters the woman world he gets weaker.
On this basis it's not surprising that when men wear skirts they are looked down on. It needs a lot of men in skirts out there regularly to turn these archaic perceptions around.

[jamie001]

I think that one of the problems is that men have such a strong need to appear masculine. It appears that women do not have the same overdrive mechanism regarding appearing feminine. For me appearing masculine is and never was an issue. I just want to be me and I accept that I am more feminine than masculine and therefore I am girly. I also incorporate a lot of women's clothing and grooming into my everyday presentations and therefore I am gender nonconforming. Most of my friends are women and I relate to women a lot better than I relate to me. If I loose status society and am treated like a woman because of my feminine presentation, then so be it. Women suffer the same treatment and they survive. It is not degrading to be feminine or gender nonconforming, in fact as someone stated in this thread it is very fearless and bold. I am proud of my feminine side and I allow her to express herself. Once I made that decision, I because a whole person and lost all of the anxiety and depression that had been ruining my life for many years. It is so liberating! Sometimes I am even referred to as ma'am and I will respond and am not offended.

Unless we can get hundreds of thousands of men onboard with wearing skirts and other feminine garments, we are still going to be viewed as gender nonconforming. The world has progressed because 20 years ago, we would have been lumped into the homosexual box even though the great majority of us are not homosexual. I would much rather be viewed as gender nonconforming because it simply means that we do not conform to society's expectations for the presentation of male.

I understand that there are a lot of folks here on the cafe that hate the gender non conforming label and want to be considered as masculine men that simply like to wear skirts. I don't think that it will ever happen because you will never get Joe Sixpack onboard with this concept. Joe Sixpack will never loose the Marlboro Man and Lumberjack conception of what it means to be a man. Therefore I believe that this best course of action is to identify as gender nonconforming. In my case I am a gender nonconforming heterosexual male and I am proud of who and what I am. Yes I am girly, but that is ok because there is nothing wrong with feminine expression.

[STEVIE]

but that is ok because there is nothing wrong with feminine expression.

In terms of fashion, there is nothing wrong with any form of expression.
Whether any individual or group approves, or disapproves , is irrelevant.
Taste is just a matter of opinion.
Steve.

[Jim]

Is a man who has a full range of emotions and is aware of how those around him are feeling "Gender Non-conforming" as well? A guy who can feel sadness without it degenerating into rage? A guy who prefers to be polite to others? Where's the line? I'll posit that there is no line because the term is (a) discriminatory against men, (b) ill-defined at best, and (c) so broad as to be fundamentally meaningless save as a slur. Men have enough problems on their plates already, and too few outlets to get rid of them. Let's not pile something else on.

This excerpt points out to me where the differing emotions come from.

To me and some others, "non-conforming" is something worth valuing, while to you and some others it is a slur.

[Bodycon]

I note the (overly used word) spectrum of feelings about where we as individuals sit in respect of gender. Nowt wrong with that, but just because some feel girly does not mean that all are and vice versa. The "gender non-conforming" umbrella is too big and too full of holes to be of any use to male or female or anywhere in between, or indeed beyond.

Someone saying they have "girly feelings" could be taken as sexist by a girl; she would ask "are they not just feelings?" and quite rightly so. You can have any feeling you like, but start pigeon holing them by gender then you are on slippery slope to a black leather couch in a dimmed room. This obsession with pigeon holing is probably the most dangerous aspect of the conversation. No-one wants to be pigeon holed by others, but at the same time wants their own identity (pigeon hole) to be accepted. When that pigeon hole is so big it covers half the planet, it is too big.

Me? I'm still in the tree....

To my mind it is all a ******** excuse for not just being a human and having human feelings and emotions. Testosterone can make you both strong and weak, how you control yourself is more important.

[Coder]

Someone saying they have "girly feelings" could be taken as sexist by a girl; she would ask "are they not just feelings?" and quite rightly so. You can have any feeling you like, but start pigeon holing them by gender then you are on slippery slope to a black leather couch in a dimmed room. This obsession with pigeon holing is probably the most dangerous aspect of the conversation. No-one wants to be pigeon holed by others, but at the same time wants their own identity (pigeon hole) to be accepted. When that pigeon hole is so big it covers half the planet, it is too big.

Me? I'm still in the tree....

To my mind it is all a ******** excuse for not just being a human and having human feelings and emotions. Testosterone can make you both strong and weak, how you control yourself is more important.

Yes - this is the sentiment I was trying to express.

[Midas]

This debate has gone well off course. The fact that I am wearing a dress does not make me more or less masculine. That is dictated by my personality and is more or less unalterable - I am who I am whatever I am wearing.

My being in a dress might make some others think of me as less masculine than if I were in trousers, but that’s their problem not mine. I don’t care what they think.

[jamie001]

To me and some others, "non-conforming" is something worth valuing, while to you and some others it is a slur.

Jim,

I completely agree with you that nonconforming is something worth valuing. It means that we don't blindly follow the herd like sheep.