Is this the reason?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Dust
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Re: Is this the reason?

Post by Dust »

moonshadow wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:15 pm
B) Destigmatize femininity.
Not sure that's our problem, either. Certain stereotypically feminine things may be stigmatized in men, but I think that is part of a larger problem.

We (society at large) don't allow men to experience, or at least express, the full range of human experience or the emotional reaction to it. We don't allow men to have fun, do things for themselves, or enjoy many aspects of life without guilt. We don't allow men to grieve, or show their suffering. We don't allow men to show a full range of emotion when appropriate (while allowing women to manipulate others using those emotions when inappropriate). We don't offer men empathy when they need it most. We use and abuse men, and give them little to nothing in return.

This is why I've said before, and will say it again, a man doing women's things, whether it's wearing the clothing only they (women) are allowed to wear, or engaging in activities only they are allowed to partake in, is not rejected for degrading himself, but for claiming something that isn't his. He is grabbing privileges this society does not think he deserves. He is overstepping his social status.

The stigma against men doing these things is how society keeps men in line. It is the method used to get men to comply. These stereotypical restrictions, as well as privileges, used to go both ways. Men had their place, and women had theirs. Each place had it's pros and cons.

Feminism (the movement, distinct from women) meticulously dismantled the restrictions on women, and gave women access to all of men's privileges. At the same time, loosening as few restrictions on men as possible, and giving men access to as few of women's privileges as possible. (Whether this was malicious or an oversight is another topic, what matters is that it happened.)

Men are hardwired to provide for and protect women (and children), and this helped allow feminists achieve their goals. Feminism also focused society's attention on only men's privileges and women's restrictions as problematic or even existing. That effectively gaslit society as a whole, and the feminist view of society (as being run by men, for men, at the expense of women) became the dominant one that the vast majority of people in Western society today take as gospel truth.

This is why skirts for men is a men's rights issue. It's a visible example of the absurd double standards we are living under. Is it the most serious, the most problematic? Of course not. But it is one that exemplifies the wider issue. One that everyone can see.
STEVIE
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Re: Is this the reason?

Post by STEVIE »

Dust wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:29 am We (society at large) don't allow men to experience, or at least express, the full range of human experience or the emotional reaction to it. We don't allow men to have fun, do things for themselves, or enjoy many aspects of life without guilt. We don't allow men to grieve, or show their suffering. We don't allow men to show a full range of emotion when appropriate (while allowing women to manipulate others using those emotions when inappropriate). We don't offer men empathy when they need it most. We use and abuse men, and give them little to nothing in return.
Yes Dust, but a lot of it is really down to how men treat each other and not simply "society at large".
In the cafe, we are preaching to the converted but the world outside is changed beyond any doubt.
It is up to all men now to take, not wait for permission to redress the imbalances you pointed out.
We have to quit being our own worst enemies, women are not the ogres really!
Steve.
Dust
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Re: Is this the reason?

Post by Dust »

STEVIE wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:25 am Yes Dust, but a lot of it is really down to how men treat each other and not simply "society at large".
In the cafe, we are preaching to the converted but the world outside is changed beyond any doubt.
It is up to all men now to take, not wait for permission to redress the imbalances you pointed out.
We have to quit being our own worst enemies, women are not the ogres really!
Steve.
Very true, Steve. Men jump to do what they think society in general, and women in particular, want them to do. They are the primary enforcers of these things. Women tend to set the standards, and men tend to jump up and enforce them.

I'm not saying women are monsters. When I trash feminism, I'm not attacking women. Feminism, despite it's claims, does not speak for all women.

I'd take either a more differentiated pre-feminist society or a more equal post-feminist one, but I don't see the former ever happening. Plus, I don't really see it as an either/or binary situation. But the responsibilities and privileges need to be in balance. Taking things away from women seems like a non-starter, so helping men it is. But women will have to take on some more responsibility, though I doubt it will be the same responsibilities as what they once had, and that's fine. We just need to get to some new balance.

So seek justice, show mercy, and don't wait for some consensus to do what is right. Be the one pointing out these issues, even if you get some blowback. You don't change the world by waiting.
STEVIE
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Re: Is this the reason?

Post by STEVIE »

Dust wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:39 pm So seek justice, show mercy, and don't wait for some consensus to do what is right. Be the one pointing out these issues, even if you get some blowback. You don't change the world by waiting.
Amen Brother
Do it today, tomorrow may be too late.
Steve.
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Myopic Bookworm
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Re: Is this the reason?

Post by Myopic Bookworm »

Dust wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:39 pm When I trash feminism, I'm not attacking women.
But you are attacking me, since I am happy to identify as a feminist.

The fact that social restrictions on men have not been eased as much as those on women reflects partly the fact that the level of injustice was so much greater on one side. Reaching a more just society will certainly involve extending many more social freedoms to men, but I am not aware of a single freedom extended to women that should not have been (except those which I think should not have been extended to men either!).

Many of the social changes that have reduced restrictions on men are the direct or indirect result of feminism. I wouldn't have been able to go part time and spend much of my time as primary carer for our kids if it hadn't been for the feminists campaigning for a married woman's right to work. I wouldn't be able to walk down the street in a skirt today if it hadn't been for a hundred years of women establishing the right to wear trousers if they feel like it, against the opposition of both men and women who were stuck in the rut of socially conservative thinking.
FLbreezy
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Re: Is this the reason?

Post by FLbreezy »

I really prefer the term egalitarianism to feminism: "relating to or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities."

I feel a lot of feminism (these days) has become focused on negativity, and not equality. I remember growing up there was a book/record that was popular about "Free to be you and me", meaning we could all grow up in a world where gender didn't define our opportunities; whether that was the toys we played with, what our careers would be, how we divided labor with our partner, or what we liked to wear.
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