Windsor Tweed Suit

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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Bodycon
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Bodycon »

Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:10 pm
As I've been paying much more attention to this, I've seen the ratio of shirt height to skirt length flipped on occasion
A ready made look for you?
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Coder
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Coder »

Bodycon wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:15 pm
Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:10 pm
As I've been paying much more attention to this, I've seen the ratio of shirt height to skirt length flipped on occasion
A ready made look for you?
LOL, the lower half isn't quite my style, but I was mulling over combining a pleated skirt with a sweater.
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JeffB1959
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by JeffB1959 »

Mark as in Mark wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:05 pm
JeffB1959 wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:32 am
Classy, Mark, very classy! The vest in particular caught my eye, upping the style quotient considerably. And I just LOVE the heels, the perfect addition to your suit.
Thanks Jeff. Seems like a few people don't like my Louboutins.
Louboutins, the Cadillac of heels. I’m envious! They certainly look good on you.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by rode_kater »

Mark as in Mark wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:14 pm
Seems like a majority here think that the jacket/coat is too long when wearing a skirt. This is because that is what you are use to seeing with skirts! The ladies jackets are always shorter due to women typically having wider hips than men. I'm told so that the jacket is designed to fit above the hips. Longer jackets on mots women would flair out and look like a bell above the skirt. Most men don't have that problem. So in my discussion with these designers we are always looking the traditional length for the men's jackets or coats.
I get what you're saying, I wouldn't do it the normal length you see with women wearing skirts. But I think if you made it slightly shorter it would be either half the length from shoulder to floor, or alternatively, match the skirt length 2-to-1. Women tend to match the skirt length 1-to-1.

But maybe I'm over-thinking the ratios.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by crfriend »

rode_kater wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:45 pm
I get what you're saying, I wouldn't do it the normal length you see with women wearing skirts. But I think if you made it slightly shorter it would be either half the length from shoulder to floor, or alternatively, match the skirt length 2-to-1. Women tend to match the skirt length 1-to-1.
Mark brings up an important datum with that observation -- it's what we expect to see because that's what we always see -- but why should the rules (or even guidelines) be identical? Making matters worse is that personal geometry can interfere with the equation quite badly and women tend to be a bit more "leggy" than guys (and they accentuate that (or at least used to) with heels).
But maybe I'm over-thinking the ratios.
Overthinking things is a common-enough vice and is the major reason why I advocate for every man to figure out his own style and aesthetic based on what he feels looks good on him. What works on Mark might not work on me (or vice-versa) -- and that's fine. Thank goodness that there really are no "rules" at the moment that we need to feel bound by; simply putting both legs down one pipe is such a game-changer that all the other bits go over the side all at once.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Dust »

A great look, Mark! Glad you are back!

As others have said, the jacket is too long. Also the heels need more visual weight. That could be as simple as a darker color, or thicker heel. The right boot might work as well. I slimmer fit in the jacket might help the balance, too. The tweed adds to the visual weight, and those heels are particularly light, visually.

But in all, a great look, especially with just the vest.
Mark as in Mark wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:14 pm
Ive had a chance to talk to several brands designers during the last few months with discussions being about the Hybrid suit.

Seems like a majority here think that the jacket/coat is too long when wearing a skirt. This is because that is what you are use to seeing with skirts! The ladies jackets are always shorter due to women typically having wider hips than men. I'm told so that the jacket is designed to fit above the hips. Longer jackets on mots women would flair out and look like a bell above the skirt. Most men don't have that problem. So in my discussion with these designers we are always looking the traditional length for the men's jackets or coats.
It's not just the hip flair, the proportions are off. The designers are right here (for once). Kilt jackets are cut similarly short, and women's jackets are occasionally longer, especially with longer skirts. And sometimes women's jackets are given an intensional flair to exaggerate those hips.

Men's jackets are traditionally that length because it works well with long pants. Women wear their shorter jackets with pants because they have them already, and also to make their legs look longer.
Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:10 pm
I think the pairing looks good!

I'm not a suit wearer - far from it - though often wonder about jacket/top length and such. I've tried both long and short and I've come to the conclusion that it comes down to what you wrote - we are used to seeing that ratio.

As I've been paying much more attention to this, I've seen the ratio of shirt height to skirt length flipped on occasion (ie, knee-length skirt, long sweater) and it doesn't look bad. However, I've often aimed for a shorter torso... and seeing successful pairings of the longer top have given me a bit more confidence in appearing "unbalanced" compared to what we typically see with skirts.
Women play with proportions on purpose sometimes. They may not know why what they are doing does what it does, but those things work for women.

It could be to make the skirt look shorter (sex appeal) or throw off the proportions to make the wearer look younger (like a kid still outgrowing clothing). While this works for women who are aiming for young and/or sexy, most men are looking for mature and dignified, at least in suits. This generally means getting the proportions close to perfect.

While some designers have toyed with shorter pants and sleeves, this hasn't caught on, and for good reason. It ends up looking like you outgrew your suit. Not a good look for a man, unless you are a trendy fashion follower around others aware that it is a thing.

A shorts or skirt suit on a man, while not traditional (in the modern sense) at least looks intentional. So it can work. But the proportions are a challenge. When I've seen shorts-suits look okay, the jacket is cut shorter. Not cropped to show the shirt, or even as short as most women's jackets, but shorter than a traditional men's suit jacket.

Younger men have been playing successfully with some cut and fit things, in ways that work for them. Athletes have gone to much closer fitting suits to show off their muscles. A slender frame can also look better with slimmer fitting suits, or even a shorter jacket body. But the traditional suit tends to work best for pudgy middle aged (or older) guys with things they would rather hide than show off. And such guys usually set the example for what is appropriate menswear at formal and professional events (which are typically the only times guys break out suits) since they tend to be in charge.

On the other hand, younger women tend to set the fashion trends for the rest of the female population, with the older ones hopefully working out which trends can work for them, and which they need to pass on.
Coder wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:10 pm
I also think men can have their own aesthetic - not everything skirt-related has to mimic what women wear, and at some point with enough men wearing skirts and such it will diverge into its own thing... although it doesn't hurt to borrow (they do it all the time).
I think that not only can they have their own aesthetic, they need to!

As I touched on above, men and women are generally trying to send different signals with their clothing. Women often want to appear more delicate and graceful, while men often aim to look bigger and stronger. A men's suit can give the impression of the wearer having something of that idealized V-shaped torso, whether they have it or not. Women's heels make the foot look smaller and the leg longer. And I already mentioned pending the leg by moving the apparent waist higher, through the shorter cut of a jacket, but this also works with starting the flare of a dress higher, or adding a belt above your actual waist.

Point is, to make skirts on men look natural and fitting, they need to do something different than what women are generally looking for, and do it as part of a cohesive whole look.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Dust »

crfriend wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:56 pm
rode_kater wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:45 pm
I get what you're saying, I wouldn't do it the normal length you see with women wearing skirts. But I think if you made it slightly shorter it would be either half the length from shoulder to floor, or alternatively, match the skirt length 2-to-1. Women tend to match the skirt length 1-to-1.
Mark brings up an important datum with that observation -- it's what we expect to see because that's what we always see -- but why should the rules (or even guidelines) be identical? Making matters worse is that personal geometry can interfere with the equation quite badly and women tend to be a bit more "leggy" than guys (and they accentuate that (or at least used to) with heels).
This is a good point. The 1:1 ratio is harder for guys to achieve. To make it happen with kilts, the jacket it cut short enough that there can end up being a gap between the top of the kilt and the bottom of the jacket if the kilt doesn't go up over the wearer's navel. Modern kilts cut to sit down on the hips have this gap with some more traditional kilt jackets.

At the same time, there is a decent amount of leeway in the 1:1 ratio where it can still look okay. I can't quantify it for you, but even if the jacket stops about even with the sleeves, it will often look fine.

A longer skirt (just past the knee) is another option to help get closer to that ratio. These tend to look better with heels, which add back the perceived length of exposed leg lost under the longer skirt.
crfriend wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:56 pm
But maybe I'm over-thinking the ratios.
Overthinking things is a common-enough vice and is the major reason why I advocate for every man to figure out his own style and aesthetic based on what he feels looks good on him. What works on Mark might not work on me (or vice-versa) -- and that's fine. Thank goodness that there really are no "rules" at the moment that we need to feel bound by; simply putting both legs down one pipe is such a game-changer that all the other bits go over the side all at once.
Yes. Everything I'm saying about proportions are just guidelines and starting points, not hard and fast rules. What works on a bigger guy is likely different than what works on a relatively thin guy like me or Mark. And it is easy to overthink. But when you are putting a lot of resources into an outfit (time, money, etc.) it's frustrating when it just doesn't look right, and you can't figure out why. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out those why's, and I'm trying to share my insights, so you all call achieve better results with less expended on trial and error.

I nit pick outfits sometimes, but try to keep that to constructive criticism and guys who seem to be really willing and able to expend resources, like Mark. If you are wearing this stuff daily and professionally, I figure more constructive criticism is a good thing. And Mark is taking stuff to the tailor, getting things custom modified, and now apparently talking with designers. I hope he is willing to accept higher expectations.

If you are just getting you feet wet and struggling to work up the courage to go to the store in a skirt, please ignore discussions of ratios and color wheels and visual weight, find a comfortable skirt (whatever that is to you) toss it on with something that doesn't completely clash, and get out there. I'm big on utility kilts with t-shirts, because it's easy to get right as a casual outfit. Others say the same thing about knee length denim skirts. Find something easy that works for you.

We're going to disagree. This place is more able to talk about all kinds of issues and take differing opinions with civility than most anywhere else I've been on the internet. I hope it stays that way, it's part of why I keep coming back. And I hope we keep helping each other with looks and encouragement, especially when there are differences of opinion.
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Bodycon
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Bodycon »

I'm not sure I actually believe what I have read in Dust's last two posts.

A summary would be that Dust believes that proportions are important and that Dust has rules to define these, which is set out over several paragraphs. Difficult to say simply but ALOS covers it.

The most patronising aspect is the one about just starting out....

Lets be straight about things: There are no rules, wear what you like, what you think looks good, or gives the impression you want to portray (including ripped jeans or nearly non-existent outfits). Don't listen to those who want to assert (covertly or otherwise) their rules and to an extent prejudice. Experiment, make mistakes, find a style of your own.

Skirt lengths differ, so are we supposed to have a jacket for each length? Or if you only have one jacket length, can you only wear one skirt length with it....No.

The whole point of the forum (as I see it) is to help break the social rules of men wearing skirts, yet there is a substantial movement within this forum to then impose rules on wearing skirts. Unbelievable!
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Coder »

Bodycon wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:50 am
The whole point of the forum (as I see it) is to help break the social rules of men wearing skirts, yet there is a substantial movement within this forum to then impose rules on wearing skirts. Unbelievable!
I'll say that I can easily be caught up in rule-adherence. Part of it is I want to fit in within current standards (though somewhat arbitrary) of fashion/style, yet at the same time I say "screw it all, I'll wear what I want". What I have is a desire to fit in/blend in and be ignored, which seems antithetical to male skirt wearing.

I liken the desire to get proportions right (whatever that means!) to the Golden Ratio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio). Artists have found that - when works of art are divided into certain proportions - they appear more aesthetically pleasing. However, it's not a hard and fast rule, but could be seen as a guiding principal rather than something you must adhere to.

Another way to think about it - some people won't want to spend time deciding what to wear. So rules help us make "good" decisions without putting much thought into it.
Bodycon wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:50 am
Lets be straight about things: There are no rules, wear what you like, what you think looks good, or gives the impression you want to portray (including ripped jeans or nearly non-existent outfits). Don't listen to those who want to assert (covertly or otherwise) their rules and to an extent prejudice. Experiment, make mistakes, find a style of your own.
Exactly! However, I enjoy and welcome both sides of this discussion.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Bodycon »

Coder wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:01 pm
So rules help us make "good" decisions without putting much thought into it.
Imagine me having a primal scream moment.....

Who's rules? Making decisions about looks is (should be) about making your own rules; better known as your style. Humans learn by seeing and copying what they like. If there are no rules they still do the same, but are free to decide for themselves not herded like cattle. Rules in this context are just arbitrary controls akin to the thread on fashion.

The only reason the Golden Ratio is popular in art is because someone decided it was good and imposed that on others, where it becomes a norm and hence a rule. The establishment hated Lowry for many years as he did not conform, yet his work is now very popular as we discard these rules and use taste as a test.

Velma's outfit breaks the apparent ratio rules, but she has worn it successfully since 1969....
Coder wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:01 pm
I enjoy and welcome both sides of this discussion.
Me too :lol:
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by crfriend »

Coder wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:01 pm
Another way to think about it - some people won't want to spend time deciding what to wear. So rules help us make "good" decisions without putting much thought into it.
s/rules/guidelines/g and then that all makes great sense.
Bodycon wrote:Velma's outfit breaks the apparent ratio rules, but she has worn it successfully since 1969....
And she was the cute one of the bunch!

When looks collide with formulae in a way that the formulae are hinted at being wrong, go with the look.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Coder »

Bodycon wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:14 pm
Coder wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:01 pm
So rules help us make "good" decisions without putting much thought into it.
Imagine me having a primal scream moment.....

Who's rules? Making decisions about looks is (should be) about making your own rules; better known as your style. Humans learn by seeing and copying what they like. If there are no rules they still do the same, but are free to decide for themselves not herded like cattle. Rules in this context are just arbitrary controls akin to the thread on fashion.
Let's call it a fundamental difference in how I was using the word "rules". I suppose a better word choice would have been "conventions" or "common styles found among people who wear skirts". Or rather, a simple way to look like everyone else (gosh, that sounds awful now that I think about it :P).

But the topic has diverged a bit from the original post... partly my fault I fear.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Sinned »

I think that the skirt is long enough to support the longer jacket length. It doesn't look put of place to me. But then I don't see anything wrong with a conventional jacket length with a shorter skirt. It's just that we are not used to seeing that combination. After a short period of time any length jacket would look normal on any length skirt. Just give it time. Green isn't my favourite colour but that aside the whole outfit looks great.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Grok »

I was wondering if the tie-less look was intentional.
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Re: Windsor Tweed Suit

Post by Uncle Al »

I would gladly try a "Windsor Tweed Suit" but, for me, not with
a pencil skirt. I can't really wear pencil skirts. I look like a potato
with sticks for legs. Too, this is why I don't worry about "The Bulge".
My tummy sticks out far enough to let the material drape down in
a natural, flowing way.

Now, offer the "Windsor Tweed Suit" with an A-Line skirt or, for
that matter, a kilt, then it will get a MAJOR :thumleft: from me :D

Just my $.02 worth ;)

Uncle Al
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Grand Musician of the Grand Lodge, I.O.O.F. of Texas 2008-2009, 2015-2016,
2018-2022(and the beat goes on ;) )
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I respond-The why is F.T.H.O.I. (For The H--- Of It)
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