World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom 😏

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Bodycon
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by Bodycon »

Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 am Obviously the Scottish education system fails to teach English and Google translate has misinterpreted my last post into ' please carry on ranting about Scotland breaking away from the Union' so I give in πŸ™„
Is it up to you?
Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 am but not everything in the world is England's fault!!!!!
Not everything, but invading around half of the countries in the world, enslaving them and taking their resources for yourselves has a level of blame that cannot be ignored. If it wasn't the English, it would have been the French, Spanish, Dutch etc. however it was, and it started way before the UK was formed. The whole modus operandi of the country for centuries has been to take from others, it continues to this day.
Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 am Please answer me one thing though, what's with the obsession with breaking away from an over two hundred year union of nations to join a 14 year old European Union run by unelected bureaucrats from Brussels, just curious.
The answer is in my previous post. The UK is not fair and equitable and has shown no signs of becoming so, it is dominated by one member, who treats the rest like their Empire and not equal partners in a Union. IF the UK was fair and equitable, no-one would want to leave, it is that simple.

Westminster is dominated by English MP's to the extent that the other UK nations effectively have no say. The EU (which we were told that we would not be leaving) is not run by Unelected Bureaucrats but a Parliament, where each member has an equal vote and a veto exists for when agreement cannot be made.
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Re: World leaders and skirts

Post by rode_kater »

Ray wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:58 pm It’s not much to ask, is it? For the unification of the wider nation? Do what almost every other sovereign state does? Any proponent of a United Kingdom must - must - see the logic and sense in the above.
But why? One of the primary principles of the EU is subsidiarity: organise things at the level where it is most appropriate. Many federations have similar principles. It doesn't make sense to organise defence on a local council level, and it doesn't make sense to decide store opening hours on a national level.

Why does a country need to have a single education system? Australia doesn't, Germany doesn't, America doesn't. In federations it's normal for different constituents to have different rules, even different legal systems. Louisiana in the US uses Civil Law, despite the rest of the country being Common Law. The health system doesn't need to be the same everywhere either. Some rules on housing differ between my local council and the next one over. The Kingdom of the Netherlands has more than one official currency and more than one central bank (the Aruban Florin is tied to the US dollar). This isn't bad thing, it's democracy in action.
Ray wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:58 pm Furthermore, until travelling Brits say to locals β€œI’m British / from the U.K.” rather than its constituent parts, we’re stuffed.
Why is this a problem? Large countries are often split into different regions that work and consider themselves differently. In my opinion the idea that the UK has to be uniform is actually bad. Unity in diversity! I think if the UK become an actual federation with proper separation of powers between the levels a lot of conflict would be resolved. That is, make a English parliament to decide English things and a Federal parliament for the shared things. And a constitution that decides what happens where.

For example the BeNeLux (the union of Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg) also has its own parliament which does not have separate elections. That the Kingdom of the Netherlands has a Rijksministerraad which is a council where all the constituent members of the Kingdom are represented to discuss issues concerning the Kingdom as a whole. Though the Netherlands is obviously a heavyweight in these, it's the fact that the minor members are represented and the members have constitutionally protected rights that makes it work.
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by Sinned »

My final word on this. If you think England is an oppressive master then, if you do get independence, don't go into the EU. You would be getting yourselves into an even worse position. In that respect, even if you don't appreciate it now, we've done you a favour. If you achieve independence stay independent.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by Epiceneguy »

Bodycon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:35 am
Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 am Obviously the Scottish education system fails to teach English and Google translate has misinterpreted my last post into ' please carry on ranting about Scotland breaking away from the Union' so I give in πŸ™„
Is it up to you?

"Ermmmm, yes it's my thread πŸ€”"
Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 am but not everything in the world is England's fault!!!!!
Not everything, but invading around half of the countries in the world, enslaving them and taking their resources for yourselves has a level of blame that cannot be ignored. If it wasn't the English, it would have been the French, Spanish, Dutch etc. however it was, and it started way before the UK was formed. The whole modus operandi of the country for centuries has been to take from others, it continues to this day.


"So for over two hundred years Scotland was anti-empire and never grew rich from it and there are no red haired Afghans with Gaelic DNA πŸ˜† please please please read a history book they're so much more fun than propaganda leaflets!
Also Scotland bankrupted itself trying to build its own empire, that's one of the reasons for the union of nations, honestly history can be fun and educational when not distorted to fit in with politics"


Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:35 am Please answer me one thing though, what's with the obsession with breaking away from an over two hundred year union of nations to join a 14 year old European Union run by unelected bureaucrats from Brussels, just curious.
The answer is in my previous post. The UK is not fair and equitable and has shown no signs of becoming so, it is dominated by one member, who treats the rest like their Empire and not equal partners in a Union. IF the UK was fair and equitable, no-one would want to leave, it is that simple.

Westminster is dominated by English MP's to the extent that the other UK nations effectively have no say. The EU (which we were told that we would not be leaving) is not run by Unelected Bureaucrats but a Parliament, where each member has an equal vote and a veto exists for when agreement cannot be made.
"Germany France and the central bank forcing their own political will on Greece and Italy during the banking crisis, very democratic!"
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by Bodycon »

Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:21 am "So for over two hundred years Scotland was anti-empire and never grew rich from it and there are no red haired Afghans with Gaelic DNA πŸ˜† please please please read a history book they're so much more fun than propaganda leaflets! Also Scotland bankrupted itself trying to build its own empire, that's one of the reasons for the union of nations, honestly history can be fun and educational when not distorted to fit in with politics"
History is written by those in power, your history books only ever tell one side of any story. Treat all history books with caution for they too are propoganda.
  • Waterloo was a great victory for Britain over Bonaparte? Well partly, it was a coalition who defeated him nust just the wellie boot man.

    The French have a very different interpretation of the events leading to "1066 and all that" than the English. I know who I believe....

    How many planes did the Polish Airmen shoot down in the Battle of Britain? Many more than they are given credit for....
Yes, Scotland tried its hand at an Empire, but made bad decisions, however you are not telling the whole story when you say that that led in part to the Union. Threatening to blockade the Scotland from trading with Europe and buying off the gentry who had votes is what allowed the union to happen. It was never in the tenure of the common man to decide.

Years of discontent have brought us to where we are now. Perhaps you could ask the US, Canada, Australia, India etc. etc. to confirm why the gained independence, being as England is such a worthy master?

I'll repeat my mantra one more time:
IF the UK was fair and equitable, no-one would want to leave, it is that simple.
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Epiceneguy
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by Epiceneguy »

Bodycon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:33 pm
Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:21 am "So for over two hundred years Scotland was anti-empire and never grew rich from it and there are no red haired Afghans with Gaelic DNA πŸ˜† please please please read a history book they're so much more fun than propaganda leaflets! Also Scotland bankrupted itself trying to build its own empire, that's one of the reasons for the union of nations, honestly history can be fun and educational when not distorted to fit in with politics"
History is written by those in power, your history books only ever tell one side of any story. Treat all history books with caution for they too are propoganda.
  • Waterloo was a great victory for Britain over Bonaparte? Well partly, it was a coalition who defeated him nust just the wellie boot man.

    The French have a very different interpretation of the events leading to "1066 and all that" than the English. I know who I believe....

    How many planes did the Polish Airmen shoot down in the Battle of Britain? Many more than they are given credit for....
Yes, Scotland tried its hand at an Empire, but made bad decisions, however you are not telling the whole story when you say that that led in part to the Union. Threatening to blockade the Scotland from trading with Europe and buying off the gentry who had votes is what allowed the union to happen. It was never in the tenure of the common man to decide.
Yes of course it depends upon the view point and not just edited highlights which nationalist politicians of any country tend to do to strengthen their own agendas (never trust a party with Nationalist in the title it tends to end badly, in the same way you should not trust a country with Democratic in the title they tend to oversell themselves!) also for the record our countries weren't so democratic back then as to allow the 'common' man to decide things like this.
Of course I didn't tell the whole story about how the union came about, that would take up too much space but I did mention that it was part of it that in itself points to there being more!
I love it when Nationalist blame England for the failure of the Scottish empire as though England would just sit back and let a foreign country just crack on in undermining its own empire, what did they expect to happen, lol.

Years of discontent have brought us to where we are now. Perhaps you could ask the US, Canada, Australia, India etc. etc. to confirm why the gained independence, being as England is such a worthy master?
I've always thought it amazing that once the American colonies broke away the rest of the empire never followed, maybe just maybe the British weren't that bad after all no other colony could be bothered to leave and escape the tyranny, now that's a skill even early learning centre history books would have to agree upon :lol:
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by rode_kater »

Epiceneguy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:14 pm I've always thought it amazing that once the American colonies broke away the rest of the empire never followed, maybe just maybe the British weren't that bad after all no other colony could be bothered to leave and escape the tyranny, now that's a skill even early learning centre history books would have to agree upon :lol:
Oh, that's easy. US independence involved a 13 year war. I think Britain learned a valuable lesson there and didn't try to lean on their colonies so hard after that. I can't find any evidence for example that the UK enacted laws to extract wealth from Australia to fund wars elsewhere. Nothing like the the Stamp Act and Townshend Acts.
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Re: World leaders and skirts

Post by familyman34 »

rivegauche wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:02 am
I suspect Northern Ireland will defect first. That is some mess Boris has made and the government contracts to his unqualified pals - unfit to govern even the country that voted for him, let alone the three who didn't.
Some might remember what became of the southern-most part of Yugoslavia when that country broke into its constituent parts; its people wanted to call it Macedonia, but the Greeks objected as part of Greece was already called Macedonia, and they feared that it might lead to confusion. So it became FYROM (Former Yugoslavia - Republic Of Macedonia).

If Scotland leaves the UK, and if Rivegauche is correct that Northern Ireland will have already reunited with the Republic of Ireland, then what's left will be the Former United Kingdom - England & Wales (FUKEW).

Perhaps that's another reason why the Westminster Parliament would be reluctant risk allowing Scotland to hold an independence referendum!
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Re: World leaders and skirts

Post by Bodycon »

familyman34 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 pm the Former United Kingdom - England & Wales (FUKEW).
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: World leaders and skirts

Post by pleated »

Bodycon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:58 pm
familyman34 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 pm the Former United Kingdom - England & Wales (FUKEW).
:lol: :lol: :lol:
...and him a family man! :lol:
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Re: World leaders and skirts

Post by Epiceneguy »

familyman34 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 pm If Scotland leaves the UK, and if Rivegauche is correct that Northern Ireland will have already reunited with the Republic of Ireland, then what's left will be the Former United Kingdom - England & Wales (FUKEW).![/size]
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

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Rivegauche needs to update his info. on a possible reunification of Ireland.

Chancellor Kohl very nearly bankrupted Germany when on reunification he gave the East Germans a Deutschmark for an East German Mark and it took the country a great many years to recover from that....a whole generation in fact. I was living there when it happened and every English-speaking dentist working there then got burnt fingers through negative equity, including myself.

We in the Republic simply don't have the financial clout to bankroll the North as Westminster does. Apart from any 'idealist' political goal, the real decider is economics, and it would be a no-no.

Tom
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by rivegauche »

I don't think I actually said that Northern Ireland would become part of the Republic. They might want to (OK the majority might want to - a significant minority would go apoplectic) but why would Ireland want to take them on board - an economic and sectarian nightmare. It is worth pondering on the chances, even in the worst of times, how long it would have taken in Dublin or Galway or Cork to find 50 people who wished they had never left the UK. Nuff said.

The Balkans have no relevance to the UK.

It is entertaining to wind up the FUKEW lot (Thank you for that gem) who inists on the Scots doing their bidding. Sod what the people of Scotland think, eh? - the FUKEW lot are better placed to know what is good for 'em. Better still, don't let the Scots have a vote - they don't have the intellectual aptitude of those south if the border. How lucky them jocks are to have the English to keep them right and stop them making stupid decisions. Talking of stupid decisions, wasn't leaving the EU supposed to bring back control of the borders and stop all these immigrants coming in? How is that going, then? I hear the French have finally managed to stop people crossing the Channel, though - they stopped Priti Patel coming to a meeting in France.
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Re: World leaders and skirts and apparently a conversation on Scotland becoming separate from the United Kingdom &#12852

Post by Ray »

RodeKater

You seem to have missed my point completely. You’re responding with blocks and rebuttals - almost for the sake of it - and you fail to see the simple logic in what I suggest.

I will consider how to respond - and whether it’s worth it. I’m not sure it is.
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Re: World leaders and skirts

Post by rode_kater »

familyman34 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:37 pm Some might remember what became of the southern-most part of Yugoslavia when that country broke into its constituent parts; its people wanted to call it Macedonia, but the Greeks objected as part of Greece was already called Macedonia, and they feared that it might lead to confusion. So it became FYROM (Former Yugoslavia - Republic Of Macedonia).
The story is a bit more complicated than that, but since 2019 they are known as The Republic of North Macedonia. Fit's right in with Republic of Northern Ireland I guess?

But the huge economic gap between NI and the RoI and the rest of the UK is just terrible. Until that is fixed happiness cannot be achieved.
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